Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant?

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polarbear101
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Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant?

Postby polarbear101 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:35 pm

Last edited by polarbear101 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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daverupa
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby daverupa » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:21 pm

Streamwinners are unerringly headed for liberation, and they have access to right view, but they are not impeccable teachers, they can still drop the ball in terms of sila, they don't necessarily have jhana, and while they ought not to conceive, they still do - since they are still in training - with concomitant effects. ("The Buddha has discussed two types of feeling" - "No, he discussed three types of feeling." Not that this half-remembered sutta included streamwinners, but this sort of disagreement could probably arise amongst them. The trick is to see that neither arguer is doctrinally wrong, just wrongheaded.)

Some arahants are liberated through contemplating the aggregates, others the sense spheres, others the elements, and so on, but I'm disinclined to call these metaphysics through which one interprets anicca. It's just that, for any scale of resolution, anicca can be observed. The commonality seems to be the streamwinner's seeing of idapaccayata.

The doubt which is eliminated is doubt about wholesome & unwholesome states, which is how the streamwinner is bound for liberation within a limited time frame.

Discussing training potentials with respect to Nikayas or +Abhidhamma or ++Commentaries is probably bound for trouble, as far as topics go...

Gena1480
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby Gena1480 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:30 pm

the stream entry
has no doubt about the most important thing
that is the deathlesss

mogg
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:58 am


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daverupa
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby daverupa » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:13 am


Digity
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby Digity » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:37 am

Can you point to a sutta that says stream-entry is dependant on Jhana. If not, what are basing this on?

My understanding of stream-entry is someone entering the eightfold path and understanding it's the path to liberation. A stream-winner doesn't doubt the path. They're sure it'll lead to liberation.

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reflection
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby reflection » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:11 am

I don't see why this would be such and important question. If we want to have faith, we only need to have faith in the Buddha's enlightenment. Whatever claims, direct or indirect, true or false, of any stream entry shouldn't be too much of a concern, as I see it. But to answer it anyway, in my understanding:

In a way you already gave the answer when you quoted "the dustless Dhamma eye". It means seeing reality without dust in the eyes, seeing the Dhamma in everything. A being that entered the stream sees this not on an intellectual level, but on deeper level. They see the four noble truths. And since these truths include all of the Dhamma, two beings entered the stream will agree on all things Dhamma, also dependent origination. They understand it as a result of directly seeing nibbana, not trough some analysis. So understanding of impermanence will be identical also.

Because the understanding is on a deep level, two may seem to disagree on a superficial level once it is conceptualized through words. Even in the suttas one can find seemingly opposing things, but that is also because they are on a conceptualized level - the level of communication.

With love, :buddha2:
Reflection

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby m0rl0ck » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:00 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Mr Man
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby Mr Man » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:08 pm

No.

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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby santa100 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:50 pm


mogg
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby mogg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:39 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:46 am


Reductor
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby Reductor » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:03 am


SamKR
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Re: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerra

Postby SamKR » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:04 am



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