The Benefits & Drawbacks of Pali

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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby Sylvester » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:42 am

Kare wrote:I don't know what you are referring to here. A nexus? In Pali the whole phrase is one composite word: surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā. And all of the elements are nouns. So I'm sorry, but I see no basis for your analysis.



Hi Kare

I'm sure that you're aware that the compound occurs as 2 slightly different variants in the various editions, ie surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhāna and surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhāna. The former (based on a word count in the Burmese edition) is more frequently encountered than the latter. I take the presence of the undoubled "p" to be evidence that this compound started life as 2 separate compounds, and that the doubled "p" form is part of the ongoing evolution of the redaction. That is how I parsed the compound into 2 distinct compounds.

I take surāmerayamajja to be an aggregative compound, while the pamādaṭṭhāna is a bahubbīhi compound. The bahubbīhi would thus be an attributive/"adjectival" compound, notwithstanding that it is made up of nouns. The attribute would then stand in that relation to the nouns (surāmerayamajja). I put this into the class of bahubbīhis dealt with by Warder under Bahubbīhi Compounds (I), p.137 and how this fits into his syntactical analysis of the nexus at p.61.

The Comy parse of pamādaṭṭhāna also suggests that it was treated as an attributive bahubbīhi -

Surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhānānuyogoti ettha surāti piṭṭhasurā pūvasurā odanasurā kiṇṇapakkhittā sambhārasaṃyuttāti pañca surā. Merayanti pupphāsavo phalāsavo madhvāsavo guḷāsavo sambhārasaṃyuttoti pañca āsavā. Taṃ sabbampi madakaraṇavasena majjaṃ. Pamādaṭṭhānanti pamādakāraṇaṃ.

DA, Pāthikavaggaṭṭhakathā 247


Just out of curiosity, how would you translate the original compound?
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:29 am

The Problem With Pali


Is that I'm unfortunately not a native speaker, which I imagine would save me a whole lot of trouble.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:17 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
The Problem With Pali


Is that I'm unfortunately not a native speaker, which I imagine would save me a whole lot of trouble.
Native speakers of Pali are as common as turtle fur.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:38 am

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
The Problem With Pali


Is that I'm unfortunately not a native speaker, which I imagine would save me a whole lot of trouble.
Native speakers of Pali are as common as turtle fur.


This is the other problem with Pali.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby danieLion » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:44 am

Mr Man wrote:
danieLion wrote:When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Now if you had bothered to learn Spanish properly......
Ad hominem. What would you know about my Spanish skills. You weren't there. Are you psychic? A mind reader? Do you have a monopoly on what learning Spanish properly is?

I'm starting think a side effect of learning Pali is that it makes you a -------- ----. Mod edited.
Last edited by danieLion on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:45 am

danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
danieLion wrote:When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Now if you had bothered to learn Spanish properly......
Ad hominem.
Or making a joke.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby danieLion » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:48 am

Kare wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Kare wrote:I find this thread rather strange and unreal.
Don't worry about it. That's just the collapse of your clinging to a belief happening.
Kare wrote:But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard...
Hard? :rofl: Nothing hard about it.


I see. To some a preference of ignorance comes easily and naturally, then.

No. You were right the first time. It's just you. Ignorance comes easy to everyone--or has your conceit completely deluded you? What would you know about my knowledge of Pali? Are you a mind reader?

Kare wrote:...to defend and justify ignorance.

danieLion wrote:Ignorance includes thinking your way of viewing things is how everyone else should see view them.


Kare wrote:Not learning Pali = not knowing Pali. Not knowing = ignorance.

My views are irrelevant here.

Ignorance = conceit. If your'e views are irrelevant, why'd you use the phrase, "maybe it's just me"?
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:54 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:This is the other problem with Pali.
I don't know why that should be a problem. It can be learned, and as languages go, sutta Pali is certainly not as difficult as some modern Indo-European languages. It is a lovely language to speak, and it is not difficult to pronounce. It presents challenges, of course, but in learning it, Pali also present rewards on any number of levels.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:56 am

danieLion wrote: . . .
Okay. you got your shot in, but any more of this from whomever will be deleted.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby danieLion » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:01 am

Sylvester wrote:
Kare wrote:I don't know what you are referring to here. A nexus? In Pali the whole phrase is one composite word: surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā. And all of the elements are nouns. So I'm sorry, but I see no basis for your analysis.



Hi Kare

I'm sure that you're aware that the compound occurs as 2 slightly different variants in the various editions, ie surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhāna and surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhāna. The former (based on a word count in the Burmese edition) is more frequently encountered than the latter. I take the presence of the undoubled "p" to be evidence that this compound started life as 2 separate compounds, and that the doubled "p" form is part of the ongoing evolution of the redaction. That is how I parsed the compound into 2 distinct compounds.

I take surāmerayamajja to be an aggregative compound, while the pamādaṭṭhāna is a bahubbīhi compound. The bahubbīhi would thus be an attributive/"adjectival" compound, notwithstanding that it is made up of nouns. The attribute would then stand in that relation to the nouns (surāmerayamajja). I put this into the class of bahubbīhis dealt with by Warder under Bahubbīhi Compounds (I), p.137 and how this fits into his syntactical analysis of the nexus at p.61.

The Comy parse of pamādaṭṭhāna also suggests that it was treated as an attributive bahubbīhi -

Surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhānānuyogoti ettha surāti piṭṭhasurā pūvasurā odanasurā kiṇṇapakkhittā sambhārasaṃyuttāti pañca surā. Merayanti pupphāsavo phalāsavo madhvāsavo guḷāsavo sambhārasaṃyuttoti pañca āsavā. Taṃ sabbampi madakaraṇavasena majjaṃ. Pamādaṭṭhānanti pamādakāraṇaṃ.

DA, Pāthikavaggaṭṭhakathā 247


Just out of curiosity, how would you translate the original compound?

This conversation between you two is a good example of how out of touch learning Pali can make you. Why not just practice what you think it means and test it through your own experience with it? It doesn't take even a little Pali to know that drinking doesn't do practice any favors.
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:02 am

Moderator Note to all and sundry: Be civil.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:This is the other problem with Pali.
I don't know why that should be a problem. It can be learned, and as languages go, sutta Pali is certainly not as difficult as some modern Indo-European languages. It is a lovely language to speak, and it is not difficult to pronounce. It presents challenges, of course, but in learning it, Pali also present rewards on any number of levels.


It's not a big problem and I was half joking anyway, but If there are any problems with Pali it's simply that I'm not a native speaker and that there aren't any for that matter. It is certainly a lovely language to chant, can't say I've done any Pali speaking outside of that. And I do plan on learning the language in some detail, I just have to get around to it one of these days. But yeah, of course the language is perfectly learnable, otherwise this website almost certainly wouldn't exist.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:07 am

danieLion wrote:This conversation between you two is a good example of how out of touch learning Pali can make you. Why not just practice what you think it means and test it through your own experience with it? It doesn't take even a little Pali to know that drinking doesn't do practice any favors.
A debate over a translation issue does not indicate being out of touch. Being "out of touch" is not something that can be determined by what has been said here between these two educated Dhamma practitioners, given that I rather doubt you know what their Dhamma lives and practices are or are not.

Last time, everyone, please be civil.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:19 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:This is the other problem with Pali.
I don't know why that should be a problem. It can be learned, and as languages go, sutta Pali is certainly not as difficult as some modern Indo-European languages. It is a lovely language to speak, and it is not difficult to pronounce. It presents challenges, of course, but in learning it, Pali also present rewards on any number of levels.


It's not a big problem and I was half joking anyway, but If there are any problems with Pali it's simply that I'm not a native speaker and that there aren't any for that matter. It is certainly a lovely language to chant, can't say I've done any Pali speaking outside of that. And I do plan on learning the language in some detail, I just have to get around to it one of these days. But yeah, of course the language is perfectly learnable, otherwise this website almost certainly wouldn't exist.

:anjali:
Start now. Start with Lily de Silva's very easy PALI PRIMER then go to A.K. Warder's sutta based INTRODUCTION TO PALI. And depending upon how good you are with languages, expect to put in several years, at least.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby Alobha » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:20 am

The Problem with Pali eh? Seems like people can have a problem with everything. ;)
Maybe one would benefit from a more balanced view like "The advantages and disadvantages of pali". It has its pros and cons, just like most things. There is little use in degrading everything about pali and dismissing its value completely. It's not an approach das leads to peace of mind, is it?
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:28 am

Alobha wrote:There is little use in degrading everything about pali and dismissing its value completely.
While I agree with you, I do not think anyone has done that in this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby Sylvester » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:Native speakers of Pali are as common as turtle fur.



Image
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:55 am

Sylvester wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Native speakers of Pali are as common as turtle fur.


Okay, then hen's teeth.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby Sylvester » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:Okay, then hen's teeth.



Image



Whoops, extinct. Guess the native Pali speaker is more common than this...
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Postby Kare » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:20 am

danieLion wrote:No. You were right the first time.


I usually am.

Enough said.
Mettāya,
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