While I agree with you, I do not think anyone has done that in this thread.Alobha wrote:There is little use in degrading everything about pali and dismissing its value completely.
The Benefits & Drawbacks of Pali
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The Problem With Pali
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The Problem With Pali
Okay, then hen's teeth.Sylvester wrote:tiltbillings wrote:Native speakers of Pali are as common as turtle fur.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The Problem With Pali
I usually am.danieLion wrote: No. You were right the first time.
Enough said.
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: The Problem With Pali
The single 'p' may just as well be a scribal error, so I would not base too wide reaching conclusions on this detail.Sylvester wrote:Kare wrote: I don't know what you are referring to here. A nexus? In Pali the whole phrase is one composite word: surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā. And all of the elements are nouns. So I'm sorry, but I see no basis for your analysis.
Hi Kare
I'm sure that you're aware that the compound occurs as 2 slightly different variants in the various editions, ie surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhāna and surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhāna. The former (based on a word count in the Burmese edition) is more frequently encountered than the latter. I take the presence of the undoubled "p" to be evidence that this compound started life as 2 separate compounds, and that the doubled "p" form is part of the ongoing evolution of the redaction. That is how I parsed the compound into 2 distinct compounds.
Some years ago I wrote a detailed analysis and translation of it at this forum. I tried to find it, but I can not make the search function work. Maybe someone else is able to find it? If not, I'll see if I can do it once more.
I take surāmerayamajja to be an aggregative compound, while the pamādaṭṭhāna is a bahubbīhi compound. The bahubbīhi would thus be an attributive/"adjectival" compound, notwithstanding that it is made up of nouns. The attribute would then stand in that relation to the nouns (surāmerayamajja). I put this into the class of bahubbīhis dealt with by Warder under Bahubbīhi Compounds (I), p.137 and how this fits into his syntactical analysis of the nexus at p.61.
The Comy parse of pamādaṭṭhāna also suggests that it was treated as an attributive bahubbīhi -
Just out of curiosity, how would you translate the original compound?Surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhānānuyogoti ettha surāti piṭṭhasurā pūvasurā odanasurā kiṇṇapakkhittā sambhārasaṃyuttāti pañca surā. Merayanti pupphāsavo phalāsavo madhvāsavo guḷāsavo sambhārasaṃyuttoti pañca āsavā. Taṃ sabbampi madakaraṇavasena majjaṃ. Pamādaṭṭhānanti pamādakāraṇaṃ.
DA, Pāthikavaggaṭṭhakathā 247
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: The Problem With Pali
Is this the one, kare?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 642#p37052
and a connected post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 667#p37368
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 642#p37052
and a connected post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 667#p37368
- Polar Bear
- Posts: 1348
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Re: The Problem With Pali
I downloaded the Pali Primer so here goes nothing. Thanks for the suggestion and the source.tiltbillings wrote: Start now. Start with Lily de Silva's very easy PALI PRIMER then go to A.K. Warder's sutta based INTRODUCTION TO PALI. And depending upon how good you are with languages, expect to put in several years, at least.
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: The Problem With Pali
Yes. Thanks a lot! I don't know why the search didn't work for me.Reductor wrote:Is this the one, kare?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 642#p37052
and a connected post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 667#p37368
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: The Problem With Pali
Search is broken. I used google.Kare wrote:Yes. Thanks a lot! I don't know why the search didn't work for me.Reductor wrote:Is this the one, kare?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 642#p37052
and a connected post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 667#p37368
just put "site:www.dhammawheel.com" in the search so only results from here are returned.
Re: The Problem With Pali
Slurp. I'm glad I've not thrown away my bottle of Mavrodafni!
Re: The Problem With Pali
IMHO, it is good to check various translations of KEY words and examine their meaning.Kare wrote:Not learning Pali = not knowing Pali. Not knowing = ignorance.
On the other hand, I don't think that it is necessary to become fluent in Pali. We don't even know from what dialects it was translated to Pali. We don't know even if every pali word came correctly. For example I've noticed that some pali texts have anicca, and some have aniccha which drastically changes the meaning of one of contemplations in girimananda sutta. So I don't believe that pali canon is word for word accurate anyways.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The Problem With Pali
And do not forget that meaning is determined by usage.Alex123 wrote:IMHO, it is good to check various translations of KEY words and examine their meaning.Kare wrote:Not learning Pali = not knowing Pali. Not knowing = ignorance.
This is an odd statement. I do not see here any reason not to learn Pali, and please give us the actual Pali of the that uses "aniccha" as opposed to anicca.On the other hand, I don't think that it is necessary to become fluent in Pali. We don't even know from what dialects it was translated to Pali. We don't know even if every pali word came correctly. For example I've noticed that some pali texts have anicca, and some have aniccha which drastically changes the meaning of one of contemplations in girimananda sutta. So I don't believe that pali canon is word for word accurate anyways.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The Problem With Pali
But remember the Middle Way, and don't go to excesses!Sylvester wrote:Slurp. I'm glad I've not thrown away my bottle of Mavrodafni!
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: The Problem With Pali
Yes, key words are important. But what many people seem to forget (or ignore), is that in Pali the grammar is equally important. The grammar says how the key words relate to each other, and there is quite a difference between 'dog bites man' and 'man bites dog', although all the key words are the same.Alex123 wrote:IMHO, it is good to check various translations of KEY words and examine their meaning.Kare wrote:Not learning Pali = not knowing Pali. Not knowing = ignorance.
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre