Downloading books you have had physical copies of

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Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:52 am

Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:04 am

Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby marc108 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:13 am

BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away.
I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack


you can borrow mine, just pm me your address.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:47 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.


Not everybody would agree with that analysis.
Disciples, this I declare to you: All conditioned things are subject to disintegration – strive on untiringly for your liberation.

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Reductor » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:38 am

I've thought about this whole electronic property stuff, and I just don't have a certain answer; I would suggest, however, that, because you have paid for the material in the past and so have remunerated the publisher for their costs, you're not doing any real harm in downloading an electronic version now.

Secondly, the Venerable would likely not mind if you had an electronic copy of his material, seeing as it is dhamma and he's in the habit of being open handed with that stuff. Actually, this point should be firstly, and the point above should be secondly.

This argument is not water tight, as it could be seen that you're depriving the publisher of potential earnings. But to me this is silly, and to allow it to stand would allow us to be forced to make all kinds of purchases we just don't want. "Buy this TV", "No, I don't need it.", "Buy it, or you're depriving us our earnings and will be taken to court." :tongue:

Anyway, that's all I got right now.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Samma » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:56 am

The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499
Last edited by Samma on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby alan... » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:05 am

Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away...


how cool are these guys? at first i thought "CORPORATE?" and saw mostly pure land stuff at a temple i went too, but then i noticed they have basically all the traditions and give away a TON of free books! the temple i used to go to has a section in their library where you can just take books for free and a lot of them are from these guys. :thumbsup:
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:26 am

BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack


Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby SamKR » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:29 am

Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499

That's great. I assume this pdf from budaedu.org is legal. After all this organization is renowned for a long time. In the third page of the pdf it says:
This edition has been published for FREE DISTRIBUTION ONLY and NOT FOR SALE.

Buying the book was not a problem, but all I found was paperback version in Amazon and I was looking for a legal electronic version of this book (google books or amazon kindle) so that I can read it in my tablet. Great. Thanks for all of those who are involved in this Dhamma Dana.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:10 am

SamKR wrote:
Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499

That's great. I assume this pdf from budaedu.org is legal. After all this organization is renowned for a long time. In the third page of the pdf it says:
As an act of Dhammadana, Analayo has waived royalty payments from this book.
...
This edition has been published for FREE DISTRIBUTION ONLY and NOT FOR SALE.

Buying the book was not a problem, but all I found was paperback version in Amazon and I was looking for a legal electronic version of this book (google books or amazon kindle) so that I can read it in my tablet. Great. Thanks for all of those who are involved in this Dhamma Dana.



Fantastic, that solves it. I can download it legally without violating the 2nd precept.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby binocular » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:33 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object.


That formulation was made before (digital) copying existed. In the meantime, circumstances have changed.


Ben wrote:My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.


Agreed.
One thing is to make a copy of something that one already possesses (and legally so), and to use that copy for personal means. Such as copying the songs from a purchased music CD to use them on a portable audio device.
But it's not the same to get copies freely, when these copies are of something that is under copyright.


ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them


I think it depends on the reason for asking such.
If one has become deprived of a legally purchased item that is under copyright, by no fault of one's own, then I think it would be appropriate to ask for such permission for a free copy.
But if one has become deprived of said item by an act of one's own or by negligence, then I think one is essentially in the same position as everyone else who wants said item for the first time.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:49 pm

Ben wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack


Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben


Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby daverupa » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:52 pm

http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... -buddhism/

Intellectual Property in Early Buddhism: A Legal and Cultural Perspective

Ven. Pandita (Burma)
University of Kelaniya

In this paper, I examine the modern concepts of intellectual property and account for their significance in monastic law and culture of early Buddhism. As a result, I have come to the following conclusions: (1) the infringement of copyrights, patents, and trademarks does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned; (2) because a trademark infringement involves telling a deliberate lie, it entails an offense of expiation (pācittiya), but I cannot find any Vinaya rule which is transgressed by copyright and patent infringements; and (3) although the Buddha recognized the right to intellectual credit, commentarial interpretations have led some traditional circles to maintain that intellectual credit can be transferred to someone else.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby appicchato » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:19 pm

Buckwheat wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.


Not everybody would agree with that analysis.


Conversely, not everyone would disagree either...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby appicchato » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:23 pm

Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.


Pearls...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:09 pm

daverupa wrote:... the infringement of copyrights... does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned...


But doesn't that leave this website, and its users, open to legal attack? I'm now of the opinion that this forum abides by a strange definition of "stealing", and will be more careful what I download in future!

"What is unskillful? Taking life is unskillful, taking what is not given..." — MN 9
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby daverupa » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:44 pm

mal4mac wrote:
daverupa wrote:... the infringement of copyrights... does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned...


But doesn't that leave this website, and its users, open to legal attack?


Not really - I'm not a lawyer so your mileage may vary, but forum posts and their content are the sole responsibility of the poster, not the forum nor its owners/operators. Usually this is spelled out in the TOS. In our case,

Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby convivium » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:12 pm

the dhamma should always be free.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:28 pm

convivium wrote:the dhamma should always be free.
As long as you willing to help pay for it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby appicchato » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:55 pm

...forum posts and their content are the sole responsibility of the poster, not the forum nor its owners/operators.


Unfortunately not so in Thailand... :coffee:
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