Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
plwk
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Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby plwk » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:57 am


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:05 am

are essential to make progress. I don't see any easy path to achieve anything at all worthwhile, let alone a goal as noble as the cessation of suffering.

The pain we have to endure may be more mental than physical, but even to observe the basic monks' precepts requires a willingness to endure the physical discomfort of hunger on a daily basis.

Ajahn Mun was tougher than most — it takes courage to stay with such a teacher.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Ajahn Mun was a lion of the Dhamma.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:35 pm

Sadhu! :anjali:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:16 pm

Great excerpt thanks for the link :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:33 am

I would posit that if one's path involves too much moaning and groaning then you are most likely not following the Buddha's instructions. The Blessed one shows in MN 12 that austerities do NOT lead to wisdom. He practiced the hard way for 6 years and it got him nowhere. This is re-iterated in MN 85 where the Buddha shows Prince Bodhi that pleasure is NOT gained through pain.

In MN 31 the Blessed one makes a point of asking Ven. Anuruddha if they are comfortable and well-fed. The Venerable replies that they are indeed comfortable and well fed. This sutta shows how the life of a forest monk should be. The Buddha doesn't prescribe starvation and discomfort anywhere in the suttas.
If you are staying at a monastery where hunger is a regular problem then I would recommend going to a different monastery! I have stayed at many well supported monasteries and never suffered from bad hunger...that would be too distracting an influence on meditation and is not the path IMO.
I don't see the old Thai forest tradition as being middle way at all. Show me where it says in the suttas that meditating next to a tiger is beneficial to stillness? I know of lay people who have progressed very far in the dhamma under retreat conditions...there is no requirement to go 'wrestling' cobras!

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Last edited by mogg on Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Digity
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Digity » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:52 am

I agree with the sentiment about not moaning and groaning, but there can also be a lot of ego around being tough. I noticed myself moaning and groaning a lot and very recently I got to the point where I made a conscious effort to stop, because I realized how fortune I was and really had nothing to complain about. The fact that we can all study and learn the Buddha's teachings is the greatest blessing...we should all remind ourselves daily about how fortune we are!

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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:57 am


Digity
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Digity » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:04 am


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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby kirk5a » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:26 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby SarathW » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:58 am

:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:24 am


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David N. Snyder
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:37 am

Image




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Ben
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:44 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:04 am

Last edited by mogg on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:15 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:23 am


Coyote
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby Coyote » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:13 am

I don't think Ajahn Mun is austere and emaciated. He is rather "dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — so that in no long time he would reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life" As it says in many places in the first 4 nikayas.

Image
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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manas
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby manas » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:29 am

Last edited by manas on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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manas
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Postby manas » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:48 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."


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