Thank you, mikenz66. Sorry for the repost...mikenz66 wrote:Thanks Kusala,
Here are some previous discussions or references to that article:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 59&start=0
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p180792
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p234532
Mike
Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
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"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
My apologies for making a mess of the quotes.Kim O'Hara wrote: Something went astray with the "quote" function here, Kare (I didn't say any of what you have quoted) but other than that I'm pretty much in agreement with you.
Kim
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
What about contemplating rupa and the elements?kirk5a wrote:I don't really see how science comes into play, as a practical matter. If we're following the Buddha's instructions, it's really got zilch to do with whatever science says about neurons, planets, the universe, quantum physics, electromagnetic phenomena, DNA, evolution, global warming... whatever.
And from an entirely different direction, one who is heedful must contemplate the consequences of their actions, so a study of how our behavior affects change to the environment could be seen as an aspect of heedfulness.
For a third point, many studies of science could fall under generosity, goodwill, or compassion, as most science has potentially positive applications, such as reduced hunger and other forms of suffering.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Science should also be agnostic about Jehovah, Allah, brain-in-a-vat, or the flying spaghetti monster on a tea pot...Reductor wrote:If science wants to reject it, I'd say science should instead be agnostic about it - that and God/gods. As it is, there are many reasons to doubt these things, but no sure way to disprove them.
Some consider that without ability to disprove and/or verify the theory, it is not valid scientific theory - and I can see why.
Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
It is.Alex123 wrote:Science should also be agnostic about Jehovah, Allah, brain-in-a-vat, or the flying spaghetti monster on a tea pot...Reductor wrote:If science wants to reject it, I'd say science should instead be agnostic about it - that and God/gods. As it is, there are many reasons to doubt these things, but no sure way to disprove them.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
You can go further, Alex: science itself considers that a theory which cannot be falsified (disproven) is no theory at all - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific ... l_criteriaAlex123 wrote:Some consider that without ability to disprove the theory, it is not valid scientific theory - and I can see why.Reductor wrote:If science wants to reject it, I'd say science should instead be agnostic about it - that and God/gods. As it is, there are many reasons to doubt these things, but no sure way to disprove them.
That's a bit more difficult. Some descriptions of God lead to physical impossibilities, i.e. breach well established scientific theories. If they are to be considered true-according-to-science, people putting them forward have an obligation to present evidence. Even more often, descriptions of God's actions in the world (i.e. miracles) are inconsistent with science and, again, evidence and a scientific explanation are urgently required.Alex123 wrote:Science should also be agnostic about Jehovah, Allah, brain-in-a-vat, or the flying spaghetti monster on a tea pot...
This sort of thing leads to belief in a "God of the gaps" (google that phrase if you're curious) which reduces God to areas which do not intrude on science.
Kim
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Kim, you are right.
When it comes to idea of God, it doesn't explain but complicate the world even further. I understand that in ancient times "God did it" was the best that they could do then, and political benefits of teaching about God.
Personally, whenever someone says "Universe is so complex, it must had had a Creator" what immediately jumps to me is "And who/what created God?". "God of the gaps" isn't explanation either, especially considering that we can't explain "God".
When it comes to idea of God, it doesn't explain but complicate the world even further. I understand that in ancient times "God did it" was the best that they could do then, and political benefits of teaching about God.
Personally, whenever someone says "Universe is so complex, it must had had a Creator" what immediately jumps to me is "And who/what created God?". "God of the gaps" isn't explanation either, especially considering that we can't explain "God".
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Compare those images with Christian, for example.Kim O'Hara wrote: Check out http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=12472 over on our sister site for a classic example of rigidly
It is faith...
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Hi, Ñāṇa,Ñāṇa wrote: This seems to me to be a pretty inaccurate dichotomy that you're attempting to establish here. The traditional Theravāda worldview and cosmology has much in common with the traditional Mahāyāna worldview(s), and in TIbetan traditions at least, the Sarvāstivāda cosmology is widely taught in Tibetan monastic colleges, which is every bit as "orthodox" as Theravāda cosmology. I'd also question your characterization that one tradition is more rational and the others less rational. Mahāyāna traditions have well developed systems of logic and epistemology, etc.
Agree that the distinction I made is simplistic and quite possibly dead wrong -- I offered it mostly as a starting point for discussion. Thank you for pointing out the problems with it, particularly with regards to Tibetan scholasticism.
Nevertheless, in my study of Mahayana, I have encountered the following (which seem to me like a pronounced departure from Theravadin practice):
Sutra passages encouraging the use of dharanis and mantras.
Long sections of the Lotus Sutra devoted to the worship of deity-like Buddhas and bodhisattvas. Promises that calling on Avalokiteshvara will ward off shipwreck, fire, robbers, demons and other calamities.
Recitation of sutras to ward off evil. The cult of the book/sutra as a fetish with magical powers. Monks carrying the Heart Sutra as protection during their wanderings.
The visionary and mystical style of texts such as the Flower Garland Sutra.
Emergence of a Buddha with transcendental, even divine qualities.
A transcendentalist doctrine of the "True Self".
Emergence of Pure Land and Nichiren (where faith is paramount and chanting replaces meditation).
I agree there are antecedents in the Pali Canon, but my understanding is that the Mahasamgikas emphasized the superhuman/transcendental aspect more than did other early Buddhist schools, and this same tendency was carried over into Mahayana. But I welcome your corrections.
Note: my intention is not to disparage these practices, beliefs and teachings. I am just offering them as supporting examples for the discussion.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Cross-cultural smoke is often an indicator of common neurological fires...
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Define what you mean by "Theravadin practice."Lazy_eye wrote:Nevertheless, in my study of Mahayana, I have encountered the following (which seem to me like a pronounced departure from Theravadin practice):
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
What is presented here.Ñāṇa wrote:Define what you mean by "Theravadin practice."Lazy_eye wrote:Nevertheless, in my study of Mahayana, I have encountered the following (which seem to me like a pronounced departure from Theravadin practice):
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Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
Fair point, but logically this does also mean that modern expressions of the Buddha's teaching are as much a product of time and place as in the past - so they're not necessarily any more "objective" or "true" than previous cultural expressions.Kare wrote:Instead of 'distortions', I would rather say 'adaptions'. The Dhamma is adapted to the society, culture and person...
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
I think you are just flattering your own preconceptions here. My experience with mahayana buddhism is that it can just as dogmatic and inflexible as any other human religion, even theravadin buddhism. As for theravadan buddhism or buddhism at all for that matter being compatible with scienceLazy_eye wrote:
Many people would say Theravada is quite analytical, rational and compatible with science -- to a degree. It is also more stubbornly orthodox and bound by the authority of millenia-old texts. So when problem areas arise, such as the ones Alex mentioned, it can be hard to work around them.
Mahayana, it seems to me, presents almost the opposite scenario. With its pantheon of Buddhas and bodhisattvas and its many devotional practices, it seems inherently less rational in its outlook. It is also more heterodox compared to Theravada and thus (theoretically) more flexible. Since the legitimacy of Mahayana sutras is questionable and the canon is so diverse, reinterpretation presents less of a problem. And indeed Mahayana has generated a wide variety of sects and schools. (For exactly this reason, I find it a bit odd and even amusing when folks like B. Allan Wallace start playing dharma cop -- as though their own tradition wasn't a significant departure).
So what's better, from the science-minded perspective -- the more rational but rigid Theravada, or the more adaptable but less rational Mahayana? I am oversimplifying of course, but hope you can see my point.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Re: Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist
I think he calls it "secular Buddhism".m0rl0ck wrote:Good link. Imo it pretty much nails batchelor:
What he is teaching doesnt look like buddhism to me, he should call it something else.There would be nothing wrong if Batchelor simply rejected the authenticity of the Buddha’s enlightenment and the core of his teachings, but instead he rejects the most reliable accounts of the Buddha’s vision and replaces it with his own, while then projecting it on the Buddha that exists only in his imagination.
Buddha save me from new-agers!