Skeptical doubt

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by alan »

Actually, it was dissatisfaction with his teachers that motivated him to carry on alone.
Coyote
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by Coyote »

alan wrote:Actually, it was dissatisfaction with his teachers that motivated him to carry on alone.
But that is wisdom, surely?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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equilibrium
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by equilibrium »

barcsimalsi wrote:.....
Nourishment of Doubt:
There are things causing doubt; frequently giving unwise attention to them — that is the nourishment for the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen. (source: SN46.51)

Denourishing of Doubt:
There are things which are wholesome or unwholesome, blameless or blameworthy, noble or low, and (other) contrasts of dark and bright; frequently giving wise attention to them — that is the denourishing of the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen.

Of the six things conducive to the abandonment of doubt, the first three and the last two are identical with those given for restlessness and remorse. The fourth is as follows:
Firm conviction concerning the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

In addition, the following are helpful in conquering Doubt:
Reflection, of the factors of absorption (jhananga);
Wisdom, of the spiritual faculties (indriya);
Investigation of reality, of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga). (source: The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest, Nyanaponika Thera)

If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized. (source: SN46.55)

Sceptical Doubt:
A man travelling through a desert, aware that travellers may be plundered or killed by robbers, will, at the mere sound of a twig or a bird, become anxious and fearful, thinking: "The robbers have come!" He will go a few steps, and then out of fear, he will stop, and continue in such a manner all the way; or he may even turn back. Stopping more frequently than walking, only with toil and difficulty will he reach a place of safety, or he may not even reach it.

It is similar with one in whom doubt has arisen in regard to one of the eight objects of doubt. Doubting whether the Master is an Enlightened One or not, he cannot accept it in confidence, as a matter of trust. Unable to do so, he does not attain to the paths and fruits of sanctity. Thus, as the traveler in the desert is uncertain whether robbers are there or not, he produces in his mind, again and again, a state of wavering and vacillation, a lack of decision, a state of anxiety; and thus he creates in himself an obstacle for reaching the safe ground of sanctity (ariya-bhumi). In that way, sceptical doubt is like traveling in a desert. (source: The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest, Nyanaponika Thera)

The abandonment of sceptical doubt:
There is a strong man who, with his luggage in hand and well armed, travels through a wilderness in company. If robbers see him even from afar, they will take flight. Crossing safely the wilderness and reaching a place of safety, he will rejoice in his safe arrival. Similarly a monk, seeing that sceptical doubt is a cause of great harm, cultivates the six things that are its antidote, and gives up doubt. Just as that strong man, armed and in company, taking as little account of the robbers as of the grass on the ground, will safely come out of the wilderness to a safe place; similarly a monk, having crossed the wilderness of evil conduct, will finally reach the state of highest security, the deathless realm of Nibbana. Therefore the Blessed One compared the abandonment of sceptical doubt to reaching a place of safety. (source: The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest, Nyanaponika Thera)
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by Lazy_eye »

To my (lazy?) eye at least, it seems clear that skeptical doubt refers to doubt concerning the teacher, path and practice.
binocular
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by binocular »

There's a very instructive joke:


- How many skeptics does it take to change a lightbulb?
- Actually, they won't do it. They have no sense of urgency about the situation; they aren't sure they're really in the dark.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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DNS
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by DNS »

binocular wrote:There's a very instructive joke:
- How many skeptics does it take to change a lightbulb?
- Actually they won't do it. They have no sense of urgency about the situation; they aren't sure they're really in the dark.
:D

A healthy amount of skepticism is good and is probably how most of here came across the Dhamma; for example being skeptical of some of the things in the Bible, creation-stories, chosen race above the rest, a Divine being with many human frailties, etc. I know, I know, Buddhism has some things which many consider religious and far-fetched, but they are not the essence of Buddhism of suffering and the way out of suffering.

But too much skepticism and one cannot make progress as shown in some of the similes here. Everything is considered relative, there are no absolutes, everything is culturally nuanced, etc. and no progress can be made. I sometimes wonder if Jesus or some other supernatural figure came flying through the air to return to earth to save us, the Christians would of course be happy and the skeptics would be saying 'it must be photoshopped' or 'it must be some weather anomaly where the humidity and sun are in such a way to produce some strange colors and images' and then theists from non-Christian religions might say 'it is the devil doing this to trick us'. Only non-Christians with an open-mind might be saying 'okay maybe I was barking up the wrong tree; let me examine this some more'.

I don't think the literalist extreme is useful either (at least not for me) because then it can become a Buddhist example of what we find among extremists in other religions.

I think there can be a middle way where you start with some faith or confidence in the Path and the teachings and try it out for yourself and see if it works; sanditthiko.
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SDC
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by SDC »

Vicikicchā - Wavering state of the mind. Oscillation or vacillation of the mind. The mind not fully in one direction. Going from one extreme to the other as a balancing act between reason and emotion.

Personally I feel 'skeptical doubt' limits the meaning of this word, causing it to be micro-applicated to any and all aspects of the dhamma. This severely waters down the the meaning. Throw the word doubt out for a second. This wavering state has little to do with doubt and more to do with balance and equilibrium in the how the path is understood and practiced. How ever far one goes to one extreme they must travel the same distance to the other extreme to balance out the situation. The person is not doubting either direction, they are just using one or the other for balance when they move too far one way.

Now if you take, for instance, someone that is not aware of the dhamma they will perform this balancing act also. During the week they may work hard, be responsible, eat right and go to the gym, but on the weekend they may go nuts at the bar and be rather reckless. Not making a judgment, but it is a balancing act in order to maintain equilibrium - to maintain a particular lifestyle. If they just work with no play it will build up and they get out of control. If all they do is play and not work they will lose any chance of having any stability. Now let's take a look at one that is practicing the dhamma - the person has a goal and specific ideals that they want to follow in regards to the path - they have a lifestyle they want to practice. They also have certain habits and behaviors that in the past were okay, but now must be left behind. So as they practice they continue to perform this balancing act. Too much work - bad. Too much play - bad. For a period of time the mind oscillates.

However, when one enters the stream they will no longer experience this oscillation. They will no longer have to perform this balancing act. The mind will be moving in one direction avoiding these two extremes.

Dave sort of touched on this.
daverupa wrote:The hindrance of doubt is doubt over the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome. Skeptical doubt about this or that doctrinal point or historical event is quite different.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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ground
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by ground »

Actually there is a type of (skeptical) doubt that is not a hindrance at all which refers to the conditioned arising of consciousnesses, both in early stages (identification of experience as this or that) and later stages (conditioned lines of thinking). In practice that means that each time consciousness is on the verge of "stationing" or "building its lodgement" doubt removes that which may serve as the basis for "stationing" or "building its lodgement". Have a try. (including the identifications "I" and "mine") :sage:
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SDC
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by SDC »

Not sure if that was to me, but I agree with you, ground. Skeptical doubt is useful. I just do not agree with it as the translation of vicikicchā.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
barcsimalsi
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by barcsimalsi »

Thanks for the inputs guys, i like to add another simple simile.

Lets compare a person on a spiritual path with driving:
Vision/driving skill = spiritual knowledge and experience
Acceleration pedal = determination and effort
Brake pedal = doubt
Road sign = Dhamma
*It seems like faith doesn't fit anywhere.

A naive and over confident attitude is like driving a car without using the brake pedal. It's true the road sign is there to help us get to our destination but we need to use the brake and slow down whenever:
-there's limitation of vision upon the journey. (poor weather, bad and confusing road sign etc...)
-there's limitation of our own skills upon facing extreme situation. (overtaking another speeding vehicle, dangerous traffic etc...)

Back to Dhamma, i see that doubt may still exist along the practice of noble 8 fold path for example when nimitta arise for the first time and especially when coming across some obscurities in the sutta. But, it is there to alert and keep us from clinging to one particular view. And of course it must be pair with right determination and effort to make progress.
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ground
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by ground »

barcsimalsi wrote:A naive and over confident attitude is like driving a car without using the brake pedal. ...
Depends. What may appear as "naive and over confident attitude" to a skeptical mind may just be the manifestation of a very successful "faith follower". :sage:
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Polar Bear
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by Polar Bear »

barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks for the inputs guys, i like to add another simple simile.

Lets compare a person on a spiritual path with driving:
Vision/driving skill = spiritual knowledge and experience
Acceleration pedal = determination and effort
Brake pedal = doubt
Road sign = Dhamma
*It seems like faith doesn't fit anywhere.
Actually faith is essential in both cases, in driving down the road and in following the eightfold path. In driving, you have to have faith that the road is safe enough to drive down, you have to have faith that the road is taking you somewhere you want to go, and you have to have faith that you'll arrive at the destination as long as you keep progressing down the road.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
barcsimalsi
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by barcsimalsi »

ground wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:A naive and over confident attitude is like driving a car without using the brake pedal. ...
Depends. What may appear as "naive and over confident attitude" to a skeptical mind may just be the manifestation of a very successful "faith follower". :sage:
Sure, it depends on how much his pure knowledge can support his personal perception and reasoning.
barcsimalsi
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by barcsimalsi »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks for the inputs guys, i like to add another simple simile.

Lets compare a person on a spiritual path with driving:
Vision/driving skill = spiritual knowledge and experience
Acceleration pedal = determination and effort
Brake pedal = doubt
Road sign = Dhamma
*It seems like faith doesn't fit anywhere.
Actually faith is essential in both cases, in driving down the road and in following the eightfold path. In driving, you have to have faith that the road is safe enough to drive down, you have to have faith that the road is taking you somewhere you want to go, and you have to have faith that you'll arrive at the destination as long as you keep progressing down the road.

:anjali:
Then faith should be the driving force.
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ground
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Re: Skeptical doubt

Post by ground »

barcsimalsi wrote:
ground wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:A naive and over confident attitude is like driving a car without using the brake pedal. ...
Depends. What may appear as "naive and over confident attitude" to a skeptical mind may just be the manifestation of a very successful "faith follower". :sage:
Sure, it depends on how much his pure knowledge can support his personal perception and reasoning.
Sorry, I have no idea what "pure knowledge" is meant to stand for (and there is no need to discuss this here). I don't think a faith follower needs support other than faith and the conduct resulting from faith. Besides this I would like to refer to what was said about "faith followers" by the Buddha. :sage:
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