Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Beautiful Breath
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:25 am
Location: South West England, UK
Contact:

Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by Beautiful Breath »

Hello everyone...

I am finding that if I use anapanasati I find it excruciatingly difficult to stay focused. I mean more than any other method I have ever used. It gets to the point currently where its almost a sleep induction exercise!! :shrug:

I have used this method in the past to calm the mind as a precursor to other methods like Hwadu or Shikantaza. But never used it as the fulcrum of my practice. Now its the main focus I am luck (if counting the breath) if I can get much past three or four before I am away with the fairies....its ridiculous!

Its almost like a challenge now (Wrong Attitude maybe) as I can't believe that after all these years I can't count past four without falling asleep!

All thoughts gratefully received - I don't have much time to spend online and really appreciate this resource so don't think I am being mercenary if I don't reply/thank straight away! :anjali:
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by daverupa »

Why count the breath? That's an old trick to try to fall asleep! It's also not an anapanasati instruction. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
Posts: 21183
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by SarathW »

I meditate with my eyes open.
By the way sleep if you are sleepy, till you get enough of it :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Beautiful Breath
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:25 am
Location: South West England, UK
Contact:

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by Beautiful Breath »

daverupa wrote:Why count the breath? That's an old trick to try to fall asleep! It's also not an anapanasati instruction. :shrug:
...just to focus really.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by daverupa »

Beautiful Breath wrote:
daverupa wrote:Why count the breath? That's an old trick to try to fall asleep! It's also not an anapanasati instruction. :shrug:
...just to focus really.
That simply shifts the question, though: why focus in that way? It seems to be causing drowsiness. Are you simply trying to give the mind something to do, since otherwise it just talks and rambles? Or is there something else you are trying to accomplish via such focus?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Beautiful Breath
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:25 am
Location: South West England, UK
Contact:

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by Beautiful Breath »

daverupa wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:
daverupa wrote:Why count the breath? That's an old trick to try to fall asleep! It's also not an anapanasati instruction. :shrug:
...just to focus really.
That simply shifts the question, though: why focus in that way? It seems to be causing drowsiness. Are you simply trying to give the mind something to do, since otherwise it just talks and rambles? Or is there something else you are trying to accomplish via such focus?
Ah I gotchya!

Well, I am following Leigh Brasingtons' advice regarding Jhana.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by daverupa »

Beautiful Breath wrote:Well, I am following Leigh Brasingtons' advice regarding Jhana.
If I understand that approach, you're advised to stop counting after a period of time. Perhaps skip that step altogether? It doesn't seem to be doing what it's designed to do, in your case, and following instructions by rote without letting your experiences feed back into the method is going the long way 'round.

:heart:

http://www.leighb.com/accesscon.htm
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by m0rl0ck »

I have struggled with sleepiness on and off for years and im in the sleep if you are sleepy camp as well. Imo if you have been practicing a while and have developed good concentration otherwise you might actually just need some sleep or rest or havent eaten enough recently to maintain your energy.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
marc108
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by marc108 »

first thing would be to work on your actual sleep, make sure you are getting enough.

some other tips:
use caffeine wisely and skilfully, have a cup of tea.
splash cold water in your face.
meditate eyes open.
turn on some bright lights.
stand up and do standing meditation. if you're actually falling asleep, this will stop that pretty much in its tracks.
arouse energy by visualizing yourself doing something that gives you an adrenaline rush... lifting weights, bungee jumping, etc.

also, on counting, it doesnt work for everyone. once and a while i find it useful, but mostly its boring.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
User avatar
FatDaddy
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:49 am
Location: Buckle of the Bible belt

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by FatDaddy »

Change or expand the object and increase mindfullness. There are many stimulating things going on with the breath. Stop counting and notice them.
Happy, at rest,
may all beings be happy at heart.
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
long, large,
middling, short,
subtle, blatant,
seen & unseen,
near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart.

Let no one deceive another
or despise anyone anywhere,
or through anger or irritation
wish for another to suffer.
— Sn 1.8
User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by IanAnd »

Beautiful Breath wrote: I am finding that if I use anapanasati I find it excruciatingly difficult to stay focused. I mean more than any other method I have ever used. It gets to the point currently where its almost a sleep induction exercise!! :shrug:

I have used this method in the past to calm the mind as a precursor to other methods like Hwadu or Shikantaza. But never used it as the fulcrum of my practice. Now its the main focus I am luck (if counting the breath) if I can get much past three or four before I am away with the fairies....its ridiculous!

Its almost like a challenge now (Wrong Attitude maybe) as I can't believe that after all these years I can't count past four without falling asleep!
first thing would be to work on your actual sleep, make sure you are getting enough.
Good first advice. Yet, beyond even this common sense approach to diagnosing the problem involved would be . . .

Have you been establishing mindfulness before attempting to meditate? Do you know what I mean by "mindfulness"?

Have a look at this thread (The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness) and see if you can help yourself out of this jam you're experiencing in your meditation practice.
  • In the two Satipatthana suttas (MN 10 and DN 22), the Buddha gives the following instruction: "And how, monks, does a monk abide contemplating the body as body? Here a monk, having gone into the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down cross-legged, holding his body erect, having established mindfulness in front of him. Mindfully he breaths in, mindfully he breaths out. Breathing in a long breath, he knows that he breathes in a long breath, and breathing out a long breath, he knows that he breathes out a long breath. Breathing in a short breath, he knows that he breathes in a short breath, and breathing out a short breath, he knows that he breaths out a short breath. . . ."
Whenever mindfulness is established before one begins to meditate (and of course during), it is virtually impossible to fall asleep (unless one is already predisposed to sleep by lack of proper rest and sleep). There are some tips for being able to accomplish this in that thread. Read through at least the main portion (first six posts) of the thread.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by Buckwheat »

Assuming you are getting enough sleep on a regular schedule, try to precede your meditation period with a light workout, like some stretching, pushups, situps, jumping jacks, or maybe some work like cleaning. I often do this, even when sleep is not an issue, and find that my meditation is often much more clear and peaceful... more insightful this way. Don't overdo it though, strenuous exercise before meditation leads to it's own difficulties.

I am also in the sleep when sleepy camp. However, to ensure I am not indulging, sometimes I will try to meditate anyway, then when I catch myself waking up as I am starting to tip over on my cushion, I will lay down on the floor (slightly uncomfortable instead of on my comfy bed) and just sleep 10-15 minutes. Often when I get back up, my meditation is rather strong.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by manas »

Beautiful Breath wrote:Hello everyone...

I am finding that if I use anapanasati I find it excruciatingly difficult to stay focused. I mean more than any other method I have ever used. It gets to the point currently where its almost a sleep induction exercise!! :shrug:

I have used this method in the past to calm the mind as a precursor to other methods like Hwadu or Shikantaza. But never used it as the fulcrum of my practice. Now its the main focus I am luck (if counting the breath) if I can get much past three or four before I am away with the fairies....its ridiculous!

Its almost like a challenge now (Wrong Attitude maybe) as I can't believe that after all these years I can't count past four without falling asleep!

All thoughts gratefully received - I don't have much time to spend online and really appreciate this resource so don't think I am being mercenary if I don't reply/thank straight away! :anjali:
Once/or/twice
i/experimented
(got/creative/with/instructions
that/are/in/the/satipatthana/sutta/itself
i/just/tweaked/them/a/bit)

how/to/arouse/interest/in/the/breath
which/is/as/you/point/out
a/calming/object/in/general
so/if/we/are/feeling/tired/or/despondent
that/calming/attribute
needs/to/be/balanced
with/another/attribute
that/conduces/to/wakefulness

I/recall/making/myself
focus/on/its/arising/and/passing/away
the/quality/of/how/when/it/arises/its/there
but/after/it/falls/its/gone
i/recall/mentally/noting
"arising"/as/the/breath/begins
"cessation"/as/soon/as/the/breath/has/ceased
the/perception/could/be/like
watching/an/entire/life/unfold
the/life/of/a/single/breath
so/maybe/one/could/be/creative
and/note/"birth...death"
focussing/on/how/limited/and/fleeting
the/lifespan/of/a/single/breath/is

i/recall/investing/just/a/touch
of/emotional/investment
the/tiniest/amount
so/that/emotionally/it/was/like
watching/someone/get/born,/live/and/then/die
from/our/perspective/a/breath/doesnt/live/very/long
it/can/be/an/almost/poignant/experience
anyway/you/have/to/take/an/interest
in/the/life/of/just/one/breath
ie:the/breath/you/are/drawing/in/right/now
after/it/dies/you/have/to/then/let/it/go
that/particular/breath/will/never/return.
but/because/you/invested
just/that/tiniest/amount/of/emotional/interest
in/that/breaths/"life"
when/it/"dies"
you/notice...

(in/that/space/between/the/breaths
you/can/have/that/perception/of/"absence"
how/what/was/here/just/before
is/now/gone)


you/then/do/this/again
with/the/next/newborn/breath

i/find/that/that/kind/of/awareness
not/the/smooth/sensate/attribute
(which/is/too/calming)
but/rather/the/arising/vanishing/attribute
(which/can/make/the/mind/take/notice)
the/way/it/comes/in/to/existence
and/then/ceases/to/exist
is/more/conducive/to/wakefulness
ime
than/watching/those/smooth/sensations
if/you/are/already/tired/or/despondent
the/smooth/soothing/sensations
do/tend/to/send/one/off/to/lala/land
i/agree!
so/try/to/find
another/characteristic/to/focus/on
hope/something/there/was/of/assistance
metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
SarathW
Posts: 21183
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by SarathW »

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Anapanasati actually inducing sleep...!

Post by alan... »

Beautiful Breath wrote:Hello everyone...

I am finding that if I use anapanasati I find it excruciatingly difficult to stay focused. I mean more than any other method I have ever used. It gets to the point currently where its almost a sleep induction exercise!! :shrug:

I have used this method in the past to calm the mind as a precursor to other methods like Hwadu or Shikantaza. But never used it as the fulcrum of my practice. Now its the main focus I am luck (if counting the breath) if I can get much past three or four before I am away with the fairies....its ridiculous!

Its almost like a challenge now (Wrong Attitude maybe) as I can't believe that after all these years I can't count past four without falling asleep!

All thoughts gratefully received - I don't have much time to spend online and really appreciate this resource so don't think I am being mercenary if I don't reply/thank straight away! :anjali:
i had this problem for years. it is annoying. what got me out of it is:

1. get enough sleep! but not too much. find an amount that works.

2. exercise, but don't overdo it. exercising quickly just before meditation can help, but just enough to get you moving, not a strenuous workout that will make you sleepy.

3. meditate when you have the energy, so if you wake up from a long sleep, then meditate. as an experiment try sleeping as long as you can. until you simply cannot lie in bed anymore because sleeping any longer would be impossible. then get out of bed and meditate and see what happens (but don't do this too much or you'll become a more sleepy person overall i think). you should meditate every day, even if you don't have the energy, but if possible you should meditate when you feel it will be a wakeful session. this will take some time too figure out as until you solve the problem you won't know when the good times are.

4. sometimes take a nap. this helps. i find that after a long day i will be tired but not enough that it would hamper any activities BUT meditation or perhaps reading. so it's hard too notice this level of tired since it's not a problem. once i got used to noticing it i started taking twenty too thirty minute naps and then i awake very energized.

5. generate JOY in meditation. this keeps your mind interested. if you're just bored you won't stay awake as well, if you're deep in jhana and seriously enjoying it your mind will take interest in this and the joy can help you too taper off into more equanimous states and still be awake and alert.
Post Reply