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What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfulness - Dhamma Wheel

What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfulness

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
catlady2112
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What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfulness

Postby catlady2112 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:58 pm

In the Mahasatipatthana sutta can someone tell me the difference between the 3rd (citta sati) and 4th (dhamma sati) foundation? I've read several definitions, but I still can't find a good definition of how these are experienced differently (versus just a technical definition).

The best example I read so far is 3)seeing something in your peripheral vision versus 4)looking right at it. Does someone here has a better analogy (?)

Kate

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Zom
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Zom » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:03 pm

As far as I understand it, the 3rd satipatthana is observing the mind condition itself, while the 4th is more about observing the ways of interactions of hindrances and factors of enlightenment.

In other words, 3rd is: "Aha, here what i see - the mind is filled with greed and i see this greed directly". The 4th is: "Hm, while i'm applying this perception of unattractiveness in the present moment, I see how it subdues this very greed". In both cases you "see directly". But the objects of this vision are different. In the first case it is the state of mind, in the second case it is the processes that can affect the states of mind.

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Ben
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:06 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

catlady2112
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby catlady2112 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:06 am

Zom, I have a question about what you said.
As I understand what you say,

#3 is noticing one's mind is full of greed in the moment,
#4, You notice how the greed subsides (as an automatic result) of you observing it.

Am I correct?

santa100
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby santa100 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:32 am

For #3, Contemplate the Mind, there's 1 exercise: discerning the mind on its 8 pairs of contrasting states: Greed/Non-Greed, Aversion/Non-Aversion, Delusion/Non-Delusion, Contracted/Distracted, Exalted/Non-Exalted, Surpassed/Un-Surpassed, Concentrated/Non-Concentrated, and Liberated/Non-Liberated.
For #4, Contemplate Phenomena, there're 5 exercises: Five Hindrances, Five Aggregates, Internal/External sense bases, Seven Factors of Enlightenments, and the Four Noble Truths.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:33 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Zom
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Zom » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:57 am

Last edited by Zom on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daverupa
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby daverupa » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:01 am

:goodpost:
:thumbsup:
:meditate:

catlady2112
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby catlady2112 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:31 pm

Since I am mainly interested in *examples* of what the *experience* between 3 and 4 is (I already am aware of the technical definition/description), am I correct to say that:

in 3: I see delicious food, my mouth waters, and I become aware of my mouth watering in the moment as the result of seeing the food.
in 4: I look away from the food and back towards the food over and over again and notice how my mouth starts and stops watering as a result of eye contact with it.

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Zom
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Zom » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:40 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:43 pm


catlady2112
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby catlady2112 » Mon May 13, 2013 11:11 pm

I just asked a Buddhist Theravadin monk with my example about food and he said the difference between 3 and 4 is that:
3: You recognize your mouth waters when you see a piece of cake
4: You can trace back all conditions that came together to make this happen. For example, a memory file of eating cake, experiences, childhood, etc.

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marc108
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby marc108 » Tue May 14, 2013 12:26 am

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Spiny Norman
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Re: What's the difference b/t the 3/4 foundation of mindfuln

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue May 14, 2013 10:18 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama


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