Rebirth mechanics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Lombardi4
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Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

How does consciousness pass from one body to the next at the moment of rebirth? Is it similar to how radio waves travel through air from one emitter to the receiver?

Also, if I die in Europe, is it possible to be reborn in, say, Japan?
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kc2dpt
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by kc2dpt »

Consciousness is not a static thing which can travel through space. A consciousness moment arises, performs it's function, and passes away. This happens very rapidly. However, one consciousness moment conditions the next, which is why we have the illusion of continuity over time. In a similar fashion, the death consciousness moment conditions the birth consciousness moment.

Distance makes no matter. You can die in Europe and take birth in Japan with no problem.

The precise mechanics have never been studied by anyone so there is no answer to your primary question.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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DNS
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by DNS »

Six common misconceptions of a permanent self:

1. The body

2. Feelings

3. Perceptions

4. Mental formations

5. Consciousness

6. The world

(None of the above constitutes a permanent self.)

Sorry, don't have the exact Sutta reference handy. :thinking:
Lombardi4
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

Peter wrote:Consciousness is not a static thing which can travel through space. A consciousness moment arises, performs it's function, and passes away. This happens very rapidly. However, one consciousness moment conditions the next, which is why we have the illusion of continuity over time. In a similar fashion, the death consciousness moment conditions the birth consciousness moment.

Distance makes no matter. You can die in Europe and take birth in Japan with no problem.
Thanks for that.
Peter wrote: The precise mechanics have never been studied by anyone so there is no answer to your primary question.
Surely the Buddha must have taught this? :?

:smile:
Lombardi4
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

TheDhamma wrote:Six common misconceptions of a permanent self:

1. The body

2. Feelings

3. Perceptions

4. Mental formations

5. Consciousness

6. The world

(None of the above constitutes a permanent self.)

Sorry, don't have the exact Sutta reference handy. :thinking:
Did my question imlpy that consciousness was self? :anjali:
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kc2dpt
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by kc2dpt »

I don't recall the Buddha saying anything about the mechanics of it other than saying that craving makes it happen. Without craving, it doesn't happen.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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DNS
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by DNS »

Stefan wrote: Did my question imlpy that consciousness was self? :anjali:
Kind of in this sentence:
Stefan wrote:How does consciousness pass from one body to the next at the moment of rebirth?
Consciousness does not "pass" from one body to the next; otherwise it would imply a permanent consciousness or self. I know it is more to do with the vagaries of language and you did not mean that. :smile:

It is more of a continuation in a series. The usual analogies are a flame, river, etc. Not the same river, not the same flame, but a continuation of the series.
Lombardi4
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

TheDhamma wrote:
Stefan wrote: Did my question imlpy that consciousness was self? :anjali:
Kind of in this sentence:
Stefan wrote:How does consciousness pass from one body to the next at the moment of rebirth?
Consciousness does not "pass" from one body to the next; otherwise it would imply a permanent consciousness or self. I know it is more to do with the vagaries of language and you did not mean that. :smile:

It is more of a continuation in a series. The usual analogies are a flame, river, etc. Not the same river, not the same flame, but a continuation of the series.
OK, thanks. How should I say it then?
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DNS
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by DNS »

Stefan wrote: OK, thanks. How should I say it then?
Perhaps, "what are the mechanics of rebirth?" or "what is reborn?"

You are not satisfied with my answer above? :tongue: Reprinted (reborn) here:

It is more of a continuation in a series. The usual analogies are a flame, river, etc. Not the same river, not the same flame, but a continuation of the series.
Lombardi4
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

Is this correct then:
Wikipedia wrote:Rebirth: belief that consciousness arising in the new person is neither identical to, nor different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by DNS »

Stefan wrote:Is this correct then:
Wikipedia wrote:Rebirth: belief that consciousness arising in the new person is neither identical to, nor different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum
Sounds good to me.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by kc2dpt »

Stefan wrote:How should I say it then?
Maybe: What are the mechanics of death consciousness conditioning birth consciousness?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Lombardi4
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Lombardi4 »

Peter wrote:
Stefan wrote:How should I say it then?
Maybe: What are the mechanics of death consciousness conditioning birth consciousness?
:thanks:
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Macavity
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Macavity »

Stefan wrote:Is this correct then:
Wikipedia wrote:Rebirth: belief that consciousness arising in the new person is neither identical to, nor different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum

I think the writer is confusing two different questions.

"Neither identical to nor different from..." is the answer to the question: "Is someone in the present life the same person that he was in a past life, or is he a different person?"

But if the question is: "Is consciousness of the present life the same or different to the consciousness of the past life?" then the answer is that it is different. Even the past consciousnesses that arose within the present life are now dead and gone, and no longer existent, so how much more so the past consciousnesses that arose in past lives.
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Macavity
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Re: Rebirth mechanics

Post by Macavity »

Stefan wrote:OK, thanks. How should I say it then?
"With what as condition is there birth?"

And see the Nalakalapiyo and Mahanidana Suttas.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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