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Problems with no-self - Dhamma Wheel

Problems with no-self

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:24 pm

Wow. :shock: I can't believe it. I used to believe in no-self, but suddenly arguments for it lost their convincing power. :cry:
For example:

Why can't someone postulate:
1) Self that is impermanent (born 1950, died at 2030 for example)?
2) Self that is not a certain momentary dhamma, but possesses dhammas?
3) Self that is subject to external conditions?

Wow. How much my beliefs change...
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:33 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:45 pm

Maybe Venerable Thanissaro is very wise to teach anatta as a strategy, with which I agree. Of course believing something to be mine will make it hurt more when something bad happens to that.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:52 pm

Also, it depends on the semantics one is using. If Alex123's self is defined as a biological organism with such and such DNA then that self is impermanent, but the Buddha says that anything that is impermanent is not fit to be taken as self, because then what is your self will change and thus it won't be yourself anymore cause it isn't the same self as the one before. So creating a sense of self is something the mind does, it makes up these ideas about who and what we are, or that there is a we or me at all.

Here's another interesting sutta to read: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:56 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Dan74 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:04 pm

I don't think it is a matter of belief but of examination. When we try to look for the essence within, what do we find?
_/|\_

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Alex123
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:06 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Dan74 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:10 pm

_/|\_

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polarbear101
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:12 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:15 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Location: California

Re: Problems with no-self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:24 pm

So you're saying there is no self apart from experience right?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:25 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Dan74 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:15 am

_/|\_

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ground
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby ground » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:40 am


SamKR
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby SamKR » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 am


SamKR
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby SamKR » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:56 am

Post deleted.
Last edited by SamKR on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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ground
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby ground » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:01 am


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Ben
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:11 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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ground
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby ground » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:35 am


SamKR
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Re: Problems with no-self

Postby SamKR » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:48 am

Last edited by SamKR on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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