How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by mikenz66 »

Santikaro wrote:There's a passage in the Sutta-nipata (I can't reference it properly as I am traveling) that describes the attitude of "only this is the truth, all others are wrong" as wrong understanding.
Also MN 95: Canki Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
Metta
Mike
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Present »

zerotime wrote:In sunnata there is not death therefore there is not rebirth.
Zerotime

To me, you have indentified & differentiated the 'Deathless state' from the forest of views.

Buddhadasa did teach often and above all else, the question "Who dies? What dies?" "Can't you see? There is no dying".

Therefore, we must be very careful to select two or three words we have heard such as "wait & see" and to regard this as Buddhadasa's salient view.

Defilements such as coveteousness one must be very wary of. In religious circles this is very common, in adopting another's name or teachings and then adapting them for one's ulterior purpose.

Truthfulness, honesty, straightforwardness (sacca). This is a practitioners most basic development, as advised by the Lord Buddha himself.

Even for a householder, the Buddha taught there are four vital dhammas: sacca (honesty), dama (training), kanti (patience) & caga (sacrifice).

These four householder dhammas, I have read from the suttas and also heard them imparted by Buddhadasa.

:toast:
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings all,

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Metta,
Retro. :)
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zerotime
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by zerotime »

Present:
Truthfulness, honesty, straightforwardness (sacca). This is a practitioners most basic development, as advised by the Lord Buddha himself.
Even for a householder, the Buddha taught there are four vital dhammas: sacca (honesty), dama (training), kanti (patience) & caga (sacrifice).
These four householder dhammas, I have read from the suttas and also heard them imparted by Buddhadasa.
I think you are right; this is the real engine for wisdom and knowledge just the resultant movement.
On the rest of what you said, also probably you are right. I will remember that. :namaste:
.e.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by .e. »

How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

I frequented a fairly large Thai Wat in Chicago some years back. There were monks and lay followers who were students of Buddhadasa. So he has been highly influential in my understanding of the Dhamma. There were also other monks who were not students of Buddhadasa. Most if not all of the senior teachers had a very good focus on the sutras, especially the Majjhima Nikaya. One American monk felt that Buddhadasa was verging on being an annihilationist . But I am not sure if he fully understood Buddhadasa in that there ultimately is no atta to live forever or be annihilated from the get go. I have been around the suttas a fair amount but am no scholar. I appreciate Buddhadasa (and many others from all the yanas) for his pragmatic approach to the Dhamma. That is, when you shelve the suttas and are meditating or out living your life, Buddhadasa has much to offer. His teachings on Dependent Origination as happening in the here and now are indispensible for where the rubber meets the road. To see the process of .../contact/vedena/.../birth (of ego)... within my own mind stream has brought the dhamma to life before my very eyes. In this respect I don't really see what a 3 lifetime view of Dependent Origination really brings to practice. For instance, if ignorance is always in the last life, how are you supposed to end it? I mean you can't go back in time and eradicate it there now can you? As you contemplate D.O. it is obvious this process is happening right here and now. All else is nothing but (cultural) belief i.e. societal conventions. Also, I don't see re-birth mentioned in D.O. but birth is.

I sat a retreat with Ajahn Amaro a few years ago. There were 3 monks he mentioned equally in his dhamma talks. Ajahn Chah (his teacher), Ajahn Sumedho (his friend) and Ajahn Buddhadasa.

Don't know if this is the right place to mention this but some friends are organizing a retreat with Santikaro and Leigh Brasington on April 2 2010. You all know Santikaro from this thread http://www.iberationpark.org/retreat/retreats.htm#2009 . Leigh was a student of Ayya Khema and teaches a very accessable method of jhana, http://www.leighb.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Also, Santikaro moderates a yahoo group called Buddhadasa if you're interested.

Peace y'all!
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

Don't know if this is the right place to mention this
Not a problem. You might want to post more info about the teachers and what not in the "Theravada meditation" section.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by kc2dpt »

.e. wrote:For instance, if ignorance is always in the last life, how are you supposed to end it? I mean you can't go back in time and eradicate it there now can you?
Ignorance happens in the present every time feeling leads to craving. Feeling only leads to craving due to ignorance in the present. The 3 life model does not teach that ignorance only happens in the past. What it does is present three different and intertwined models of how the cycle continues.

While we're on the subject...
Santikaro wrote:In the "three lifetimes interpretation" (found in the Visuddhimagga) of the classic paticcasamuppada sequence, rebirth & dukkha occur in the future, which is taken to be a life after the physical death of the entity or whatever that was craving & clinging. Assuming that one entity does the craving & clinging and another experiences the rebirth & dukkha, how can either of them fully realize the causal relations?
The model does not mean dukkha only occurs in the future; dukkha also occurs in the present (as we can plainly see). Sometimes the result of craving is dukkha that arises immediately, sometimes later in life, and sometimes in a future life.

It seems like Ven. Buddhadasa is criticizing an overly strict reading of the 3-lifetime model. I do not know anyone who teaches this model in this way.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by nathan »

.e. wrote:For instance, if ignorance is always in the last life, how are you supposed to end it? I mean you can't go back in time and eradicate it there now can you? As you contemplate D.O. it is obvious this process is happening right here and now. All else is nothing but (cultural) belief i.e. societal conventions. Also, I don't see re-birth mentioned in D.O. but birth is.
Wow people, eleven (don't expect me to read them all) pages! Here's hoping Buddhadasa (if and wherever he is) can 'feel the love'.

Um, .e.. "All else is social convention?" So, the earth moves around the sun as a result of social convention? A man must eat because of social convention? We eventually drop dead because of social convention? Seems just a wee bit 'oversimplified' to me.

If this is the only birth, then whence all this endless baggage that also comes with, including the ignorance for that matter. Should have popped out of the womb pristine, no? Why do I prefer blue to red? I've pretty much canvased the length and breadth of this life and lifetime, put it to bed, watched it slip away. And, wouldn't you know... there is more. Much more. Sucks, but there it is, it is for me, that's the honest truth. I have found plenty of evidence of past being and becoming and in it the causes of future being and becoming.

I agree that the causes and conditions for being and becoming, in this very life, require primary attention. However, having attended to it, at length, more has arisen. So am I supposed to simply ignore that stuff, just because this teacher or that teacher 'doesn't seem to believe in it' or because some bboard posters rant against it? Uh, that would be pretty stupid on my part.

I'm completely in favor of taking this approach, to the present, to the present life, etc.. And when that is done, to continue with the rest of what will emerge, the rest of the problem. Do this first and the rest of the problem will seem, at least... approachable.

upekkha
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by nathan »

Just to update what I mentioned eight or so pages ago about the Buddhaghosa's VSM; Just because there is an example in there that covers three lifetimes, an example that the Buddha also used, btw. doesn't mean that it is intended as a literal truth. The Buddha said that it takes a very high level of accomplishment to be able to observe how all causality functions in the present. It is a highly complex set of wheels within wheels. The Buddha could see it, describe it in detail, Sariputta could, a few others. It seems that no one else of record has since. So maybe we could all stop arguing about it until someone can again and just get on with dealing with it. One couldn't very well examine any of the links in DO if they weren't all accessible in the present could one? That said, there they are there in the present, so it follows that they were there in the past, and it is no big leap to grasp that they will continue to be there in the future, until the chain is broken. Say you don't believe all you want. The chain don't care.

:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

nathan wrote:Just to update what I mentioned eight or so pages ago about the Buddhaghosa's VSM; Just because there is an example in there that covers three lifetimes, an example that the Buddha also used, btw. doesn't mean that it is intended as a literal truth.
Would you kind enough to give the VSM chapter and verse for this and the Pale sutta quoted? Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ben »

Dear Santikaro

I understand that the Ajahn underscored the primacy of practice. If you have the time and inclination, I would appreciate it if you could relate some anecdotes or statements Venerable said on the importance of practice. Regardless of the differing opinions relating to Venerable's teachings regarding rebirth and dependent origination, his words on practice may be something that all of us can draw from and be inspired by.
Metta

Ben
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:Dear Santikaro

I understand that the Ajahn underscored the primacy of practice. If you have the time and inclination, I would appreciate it if you could relate some anecdotes or statements Venerable said on the importance of practice. Regardless of the differing opinions relating to Venerable's teachings regarding rebirth and dependent origination, his words on practice may be something that all of us can draw from and be inspired by.
Metta

Ben
And that might be worthy of new thread so the words about practice do not get lost in all the rebirth back and forth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by nathan »

tiltbillings wrote:
nathan wrote:Just to update what I mentioned eight or so pages ago about the Buddhaghosa's VSM; Just because there is an example in there that covers three lifetimes, an example that the Buddha also used, btw. doesn't mean that it is intended as a literal truth.
Would you kind enough to give the VSM chapter and verse for this and the Pale sutta quoted? Thanks.
Ah man! #@&^@^%#!!!

Look, the dog ate my homework ok?
The house burned down last year, along with my copy of the VSM, all the Nikayas and everything else I ever had. So...maybe you could look it up. Pleeeeeeeeeeeze.
:anjali:
If it's really bothering you that it isn't annotated, I can erase what I wrote, I'm tired right now. I've had a long day of heavy labor and I'm just trying to hang out here. I apologize, but if what I said seems so unreasonable without the sources right there, then I'm happy to just replace it with a happy face.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

nathan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
nathan wrote:Just to update what I mentioned eight or so pages ago about the Buddhaghosa's VSM; Just because there is an example in there that covers three lifetimes, an example that the Buddha also used, btw. doesn't mean that it is intended as a literal truth.
Would you kind enough to give the VSM chapter and verse for this and the Pale sutta quoted? Thanks.
Ah man! #@&^@^%#!!!

Look, the dog ate my homework ok?
The house burned down last year, along with my copy of the VSM, all the Nikayas and everything else I ever had. So...maybe you could look it up. Pleeeeeeeeeeeze.
:anjali:
If it's really bothering you that it isn't annotated, I can erase what I wrote, I'm tired right now. I've had a long day of heavy labor and I'm just trying to hang out here. I apologize, but if what I said seems so unreasonable without the sources right there, then I'm happy to just replace it with a happy face.
Relax, Take a deep breath, and think about butterflies or Velociraptors. Don't worry about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nathan
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by nathan »

Thanks TIlt. I'm going to go to bed now and count little orange and purple spotted velocirapters with butterfly wings.
upekkha
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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