The causes for wisdom

[tiltbillings]

actually the Commentary gives the attainment of jhanas as one of the possible things that Bahiya might have attained , but doesc not state that he had definitely attained them.

That is a significant bit of ground work for the particular situation, bringing to fruition the previous conditioning already in place. But, as I have said, these instructions are not at all unknown in the suttas, and these instructions are a masterful expression of doing.

[robertk]

Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta.
The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine
things in such a way that while he is examining them his
consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck
internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered
externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not
become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering
or birth, ageing and death in the future."

In the sutta Mahakaccana explains what the Buddha meant
by "agitation due
to clinging" (upadaya paritassana).
" Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who
regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or
perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes
change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the
change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus
there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble
disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore,
when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is
not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety,
agitation, and concern.""
http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5

Do we feel agitated when vinnana (consciousness) changes form what
we think it should be? Or do we see that vinnana is not self and so
develop detachment from the idea of a self who is controlling
vinnana.
Before the buddha taught about conditionality and anatta, sages
understood that objects through the sense doors condition craving.
And so they developed jhanas, very difficult to do so, so that all
contact at the 5 doors ceased. But the path of the Buddha not the
stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors.
So I think we become less concerned about what the object is, and
whether there is akusala or akusala, and the focus changes to the
anattaness and conditionality of the moment.
This doesn't rule out developing samatha or other ways of kusala,
but I think it is helpful to see the difference.

[Dan74]

I am kind of amazed this thread is still going...

On the one hand if one rejects the importance of meditation and other formal practice, one rejects much of the best of today's Theravada, like the Thai Forest, Mahasi and Ledi Sayadaw and followers, etc.

While one may want to discuss weaknesses of their approaches (and every approach has weaknesses and pitfalls) to reject it wholesale would be absurd, is that not so?

On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

Finally when the view is perfected, every moment of life is practice, and even before the perfect Right View, we learn to apply the Dhamma to difficult situations in life, to the cravings and aversions, to laziness and excitability, to fears and desires, we learn to see their transience and their illusory nature.In my experience I am sometimes able to do that thanks to the time spent on the cushion, where we learn to pay attention and let go.

Right from the outset, I was taught to take whatever happens on the cushion into the rest of my life and to live my life in accordance with sila which is the foundation of cushion practice.

Except in a few exceptional cases I am doubtful that learning can replace meditation. In fact after so many debates and arguments between scholars and meditators across centuries, isn't it time to put this old saw to rest and accept that the Dhamma practice includes both?

[Alex123]

Dear Dhamma Follower,

The issue is not whether there's a choice in the conventional sense or not, but to understand that the choice is also conditioned, not "I", me, or mine. Do you agree that choice is conditioned?

Is it possible that conventional meditation practice (including Jhāna) can bring one to a situation of insight where anatta will be seen, after which one's wisdom will be developed much more?

[kirk5a]

What we have been trying to show, is that, regardless what one choose to do, it is not the doing, but the right understanding which can be said to cultivate the Path.

"doing" is kamma. Right effort is kamma.

The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... illfulness

[mikenz66]

On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 09#p243109


Mike

[Alex123]

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:

But the difference is that Ajahn Brahm actually teaches Jhāna and insight based on it. He doesn't teach to: live normal life, read a bit of Abhidhamma, and hope that somehow aeons in the future, satipaṭṭhāna will come like a knight in shining armor and rescue one.

P.S.
I find Ajahn Brahm to be very inspirational.

[mikenz66]

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:

But the difference is that Ajahn Brahm actually teaches Jhāna and insight based on it. He doesn't teach to: live normal life, read a bit of Abhidhamma, and hope that somehow aeons in the future, satipaṭṭhāna will come like a knight in shining armor and rescue one.

Yes, based on causes and conditions.

Anyway, my point was that there is nothing special (in Buddhist circles) about pointing out that all actions are dependent on causes and conditions and that you can't will yourself into satipatthana, jhana, or awakening.


Mike

[mikenz66]

And here's another example, from Ajahn Amaro:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121


Mike

[kirk5a]

And here's another example, from Ajahn Amaro:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121


Mike

So there's a lot of doing.

[mikenz66]

So there's a lot of doing.

Of course. There is a lot of doing in the suttas, but not by a self...


Mike

[Dan74]

On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 09#p243109


Mike

Thanks, Mike! Sounds to me like a very commonsense teaching really. We set up the conditions for practice. It's kamma really, that's all.

[tiltbillings]

On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 09#p243109


Mike

Thanks, Mike! Sounds to me like a very commonsense teaching really. We set up the conditions for practice. It's kamma really, that's all.

• This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
  SN I, 38.

[kirk5a]

Anyway, my point was that there is nothing special (in Buddhist circles) about pointing out that all actions are dependent on causes and conditions and that you can't will yourself into satipatthana, jhana, or awakening.

If that is really accurate, then how would one follow the Buddha's instruction to "remain focused on the body in the body" or "practice jhana" ?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

This topic reminds me of an applied enactment of MN 2.

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self arises in him as true & established...

... and there is so much mental contortion required in order to substantiate and adhere to this inappropriately arisen view of "no self".

Metta,
Retro.