Breaking the 7th precept

[bga]

Hello! I'm a senior in high school and although I graduate next month one of the classes I'm taking to graduate is choir. I enjoy choir but since I'm starting to observe the eight precepts on Uposatha it is a bit of a problem. I won't sing on Uposatha but I can't really get around the listening to music part. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid breaking this precept/is it alright if a precept is broken if it can't be avoided?

[Modus.Ponens]

If you hear music unintentionaly, say while wlking down the street, that's not breaking the precept.

Regarding the uposata: do you believe in astrology? To quote Sheldon Cooper, astrology tells us that "the sun’s apparent position relative to arbitrarily defined constellations at the time of your birth somehow affects your personality." If astrology is not of your concern, there is no significance to do the uposata strictly by the lunar calendar. Just do it with the usual frequency of uposata, with the same space in between observance days, just that in those days you don't have choir practice.

[Dennenappelmoes]

I don't see a problem at all. The precepts refer to entertainment, but from what I hear you are not working with music for the purpose of your own entertainment and to pass away time. It sounds like you are doing something constructive that benefits the happiness of other people and your own development, so good job! Problem solved, or do I misunderstand? I figure it shouldn't become a superstitious custom, it's about understanding its purpose and reflecting on your own behaviour with honesty. Similarly, a monk isn't allowed to touch someone from the opposite sex, but should this person happen to faint, the monk would probably catch her and feel confident that his intentions are alright.

If you reach the point you have so much fun with the music you want to have a drink and dance on the table, that's where you may want to watch out

[bga]

Similarly, a monk isn't allowed to touch someone from the opposite sex, but should this person happen to faint, the monk would probably catch her and feel confident that his intentions are alright.

Thank you Dennenappelmoes for this wonderful anecdote and for your thoughts. I don't sing in choir as much for my own entertainment as for that of others. Also, thanks to Modus.Ponens. The astrological significance does not matter so much to me, though I would like to be accurate in my practice. Do you know the significance of why the full moon and the new moon are Uposatha days?

[Modus.Ponens]

I don't see a problem at all. The precepts refer to entertainment, but from what I hear you are not working with music for the purpose of your own entertainment and to pass away time. It sounds like you are doing something constructive that benefits the happiness of other people and your own development, so good job! Problem solved, or do I misunderstand? I figure it shouldn't become a superstitious custom, it's about understanding its purpose and reflecting on your own behaviour with honesty. Similarly, a monk isn't allowed to touch someone from the opposite sex, but should this person happen to faint, the monk would probably catch her and feel confident that his intentions are alright.

If you reach the point you have so much fun with the music you want to have a drink and dance on the table, that's where you may want to watch out

I wouldn't go as far as that. The justification you gave could be given, for example, to justify someone lying in order to be "polite".

I don't know the significance of uposatha being determined by the lunar calendar. Our moderator Khalil Bodhi probably knows, as he usualy observes uposatha (afaik). Maybe if you post your qurestion in the following thread, he will see it: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2358

Be well.

[marc108]

there is no significance to do the uposata strictly by the lunar calendar.

I agree with this totally. In reality the day doesnt matter & I think if you need to observe a day earlier than just do that. What matters is the observance itself, not the stage of the moon.

[Modus.Ponens]

there is no significance to do the uposata strictly by the lunar calendar.

I agree with this totally. In reality the day doesnt matter & I think if you need to observe a day earlier than just do that. What matters is the observance itself, not the stage of the moon.

Exactly. It even has advantages if you move it to the weekend in order to meditate all day. However, if one is an adept of the uposatha I think it's important to mantain a fixed day of the week as being standard, or else there could arise procrastination.

[Dennenappelmoes]

I don't see a problem at all. The precepts refer to entertainment, but from what I hear you are not working with music for the purpose of your own entertainment and to pass away time. It sounds like you are doing something constructive that benefits the happiness of other people and your own development, so good job! Problem solved, or do I misunderstand? I figure it shouldn't become a superstitious custom, it's about understanding its purpose and reflecting on your own behaviour with honesty. Similarly, a monk isn't allowed to touch someone from the opposite sex, but should this person happen to faint, the monk would probably catch her and feel confident that his intentions are alright.

If you reach the point you have so much fun with the music you want to have a drink and dance on the table, that's where you may want to watch out

I wouldn't go as far as that. The justification you gave could be given, for example, to justify someone lying in order to be "polite".

You are correct, and that is exactly what I would advocate 'lying' in order to be polite is what I consider to be skilfull and true (harmonious) speech. I am aware that this view is not universally shared, but it is the view of for example Ajahn Brahm. I can put forth a decent argumentation for this, but I won't go all off topic right here. The way I see it, all interpretations of "right speech" have their pros and cons. The same may be true for this precept. I guess it's a matter of seeing through the intentions, which is always a work in progress until we have the ultimate wisdom.

Metta

[daverupa]

In the Buddha's time, some ascetics used the new and full moon as opportunities to present their teachings. The Uposatha Day was instituted by the Buddha at the request of King Bimbisara, and the Buddha instructed the monks to give teachings to the laypeople on this day, and told the monks to recite the Patimokkha every second Uposatha day.

source

[Dhammarakkhito]

i'm like 1000% sure there is a relevant, significant difference between listening to music recreationally and listening to it for a class. remember the precepts are for your benefit

[Dhammarakkhito]

re: 'lying' it is 100% NOT right speech to lie (purposely speak false truths). being polite isn't one of the 5 precepts; abstinence from lying is

[dylanj]

You are correct, and that is exactly what I would advocate 'lying' in order to be polite is what I consider to be skilfull and true (harmonious) speech

No, it's not. What part of "I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech", or "Abandoning false speech one becomes a speaker of the truth, reliable, trustworthy, dependable, not a deceiver of the world" or "You should instruct yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest'", or " The person who lies, who transgress in this one thing, transcending concern for the world beyond: there's no evil he might not do" is at all ambiguous &/or allowing of this sort of interpretation.

Note:



[1] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata has sympathy for living beings."

— MN 58

There is no category for words which are unfactual, untrue, yet beneficial. Also note: the Buddha is willing to speak words that are unendearing & disagreeable.