Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby Bub » Fri May 03, 2013 1:11 am

I'm uncertain if objective experience(or reality) is the same as ultimate reality and I'm uncertain if subjectivity is the same as conceptual reality. Do we see subjective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts), do we see objective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts) or both? By the way, are we supposed to see everything as if we were just born and so have not had time to put concepts on things(or something like that) and if so, are we supposed to "try to see" in this way? ..or what? Is this wrong view? :thanks:
Last edited by Bub on Fri May 03, 2013 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 03, 2013 1:14 am

Greetings Bub,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:

SN 35.23 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri May 03, 2013 1:18 am

All experience is subjective and 'ultimate reality' is just another concept within your subjective experience. Perhaps you could clarify exactly what you mean?

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Edit: Retro beat me to it.

:sage:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 03, 2013 1:20 am

Snap!

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby kirk5a » Fri May 03, 2013 3:44 am

Bub wrote:I'm uncertain if objective experience(or reality) is the same as ultimate reality and I'm uncertain if subjectivity is the same as conceptual reality. Do we see subjective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts), do we see objective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts) or both? By the way, are we supposed to see everything as if we were just born and so have not had time to put concepts on things(or something like that) and if so, are we supposed to "try to see" in this way? ..or what? Is this wrong view? :thanks:

Does this help?
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby pegembara » Fri May 03, 2013 4:28 am

You will not know "ultimate" reality until you get deep enough into meditation.

The tadpole born in the water, grown up in the water. It only knows water. Actually, it doesn't know very much about water because it's just too close. It's got nothing to compare it with and thinks that's the whole world. It's only when the tadpole grows up and leaves that world, becomes the frog and goes to dry land. It's got that extra data to the world. It's only when you go to dry land that you know what wet means. Ajahn Brahm


"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Is Objectivity the same as ultimate reality?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 03, 2013 6:21 am

kirk5a wrote:
Bub wrote:I'm uncertain if objective experience(or reality) is the same as ultimate reality and I'm uncertain if subjectivity is the same as conceptual reality. Do we see subjective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts), do we see objective experience the way it is (meaning without concepts) or both? By the way, are we supposed to see everything as if we were just born and so have not had time to put concepts on things(or something like that) and if so, are we supposed to "try to see" in this way? ..or what? Is this wrong view? :thanks:

Does this help?
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html

Great example. Suttas such as this speak of seeing through the concepts (such as the concept of "I")... The phrase "ultimate reality" is rather unfortunate, in my view. What I think is being pointed to is the bare, irreducible, phenomena.

:anjali:
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