Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 5:18 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote: but I am absolutely horrified that there are self-identified Buddhists on this board who actually support retaliatory aggression against an ethnic or religious minority.


Is self-defense prohibited? What if it is not even happening, at least not to such a scale?

Something is not right with this whole story... Why would Buddhist persecute minority?

Apparently some are using photos from other events (earthquake in China) and claiming that these are dead and persecuted Muslims...

Check analysis of pictures:
http://cosmicstories.wordpress.com/2012 ... propganda/

Image
Image

This picture was taken in 2010 after an earthquake in China and captures the efforts put in by the Tibetans to help rescue the victims. Now, Islamic political parties and some other elements are sharing this image as Muslim killing and their slaughter in Burma.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:19 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:What is truly suicidal, Alex, is throwing yourself directly into Hell by reverting to violence.

I hate to sound dramatic here, but I am absolutely horrified that there are self-identified Buddhists on this board who actually support retaliatory aggression against an ethnic or religious minority. Have none of you read the simile of the saw? The idea that any Buddhist, not to even speak of the ordained, should ever kill or praise killing is absolutely absurd. With all wholesome intentions, I say shame on you for disgracing the Buddha's message in this way.

Violence is never an acceptable means for preserving the Dhamma. Never. Striking another down with the thought, "May this man not exist, may he be no more" is grounds for rebirth in Hell for ages. Even condoning or otherwise giving cover to those who use violence is a serious unwholesome action. Please consider what you are doing before the negative kamma accrued by such an indulgence of aversion and ignorance comes to bear.


Let's get one thing straight:

Nobody here is saying that violence is a good answer.

Please don't make things up.



Some of us are only wondering what a skillful response would be in a situation like the one in Burma.
Letting others have their way at the expense of one's own wellbeing is not a skillful option.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat May 04, 2013 5:23 pm

Alex123 wrote:Is self-defense prohibited?

Killing in self-defense is not, no. Either way, seeking out Muslims and attacking them is not self-defense.

If one is sick with bacterial infection, is one allowed to take anti-biotics? What about immune-system? Is good Buddhist forbidden to have one?

I will not bring up the obvious offense of your comparison between Muslim human beings and bacterial infections, but simply point out that bacteria are in fact not sentient and thus do not suffer. Muslims do.

binocular wrote:Let's get one thing straight:

Nobody here is saying that violence is a good answer.

Please don't make things up.

But plenty of people are being coy and wishy-washy about this violence, offering weak justifications that rest on absurd caricatures and stereotypes. There is no truly Buddhist position on this issue except a 100% strong, unequivocal denouncing of any and all violent actions by Buddhists against Muslims. Anything else is immensely unwholesome.



Some of us are only wondering what a skillful response would be in a situation like the one in Burma.
Letting others have their way at the expense of one's own wellbeing is not a skillful option.

Your own well-being is based not on what others do to you but what kamma you accumulate through your actions. You are far "better off" being savagely murdered with a compassionate mind than surviving longer with a vicious one.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 04, 2013 5:27 pm

Alex123 I think you really need to go back over what you have been writing and read it again. I'm stunned!
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 5:28 pm

As I seen images with wrong things said about what they are about, I've changed my mind.

I wonder if Buddhists are really doing what they are alleged to be doing.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 pm

Paribbajaka wrote:If worldy conditions can change so much that something as clear cut as the Buddha's staunch pacifism no longer applies, then why follow anything in the Dhamma?


One doesn't follow the Dhamma to be stupid.


There are some points of Dhamma that seem open ended. Ahimsa is not one of these. Violence is never the answer for Buddhists. Never. Those who use violence or bigotry in the name of Buddhism are liars, hypocrites, and worse.


The simple point that you don't seem to understand here is that I am merely wondering about what a realistic and skillful response would be to a situation like the one in Burma.
It's you who is jumping to conclusions about what my stance is here.


I don't care what someone else's holy book says. I don't care how they act. I care about Buddhism and how Buddhists are expected to act. My religion preaches tolerance and peace. If people from that religion act contrary to the teachings of that religion, they are wrong. Tolerance and peace always win in the long run, and the bigots and the murderers (and their supporters) are remembered in history as exactly that.


Buddhism also teaches not to misrepresent people, and to correct one's mistakes.


Once again, this is not even touching the fact that the Buddhists are the agressors, that the Muslims (in general) have been peaceful for generations.


I don't think this is the most discerning assessment of the situation.
Like I've been saying, there's probably quite a bit of history, political, national and personal, that has lead up to the situation as it is, and we shouldn't take this situation out of context.


Violence is always wrong. Violence in the name of peace even more so.

Please show me where the Buddha said racism, opression and war were ok for the right reasons, and I will back down from these points


Again -

Let's get one thing straight:

Nobody here is saying that violence is a good answer.

Please don't make things up.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat May 04, 2013 5:35 pm

binocular wrote:The simple point that you don't seem to understand here is that I am merely wondering about what a realistic and skillful response would be to a situation like the one in Burma.

And we are saying that there is only one realistic and skillful response - nonviolence, compassion, gentleness, and equanimity. Apparently that's too hard for some people to accept, but the Blessed One's teachings aren't going to suggest anything else no matter how hard you search, I promise.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:37 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Is self-defense prohibited?

Killing in self-defense is not, no. Either way, seeking out Muslims and attacking them is not self-defense.


It is self-defense, if Muslims were the ones to attack first.


But plenty of people are being coy and wishy-washy about this violence, offering weak justifications that rest on absurd caricatures and stereotypes.


No, you're reading this into other people's words.


Your own well-being is based not on what others do to you but what kamma you accumulate through your actions. You are far "better off" being savagely murdered with a compassionate mind than surviving longer with a vicious one.


Are you enlightened?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:39 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:And we are saying that there is only one realistic and skillful response - nonviolence, compassion, gentleness, and equanimity.


You're not my guru.


Apparently that's too hard for some people to accept, but the Blessed One's teachings aren't going to suggest anything else no matter how hard you search, I promise.


I'm not searching for a justification of violence in the Pali Canon. That I do so, is all in your mind.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 5:40 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
binocular wrote:The simple point that you don't seem to understand here is that I am merely wondering about what a realistic and skillful response would be to a situation like the one in Burma.

And we are saying that there is only one realistic and skillful response - nonviolence, compassion, gentleness, and equanimity. Apparently that's too hard for some people to accept, but the Blessed One's teachings aren't going to suggest anything else no matter how hard you search, I promise.


I wonder if Buddhists monks really did what they were supposed to have done. Check the pics.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:41 pm

Mr Man wrote:
binocular wrote:
Mr Man wrote:It really doesn't take any research. "They" are just people like you and me. Why do you want to spread hatred?


If a stranger were to come to live in your house, without your invitation, would you just let him?
Would you let him have your house?
Would you consider it an act of hatred if you were to ask him to leave?


binocular Your questions are not relevant.


Explain. Why aren't they relevant?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 5:47 pm

Alex123 wrote:As I seen images with wrong things said about what they are about, I've changed my mind.

I wonder if Buddhists are really doing what they are alleged to be doing.


Good point.

Perhaps the Buddhists have asked the illegal immigrants to leave. By Western standards, this is of course outrageous.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat May 04, 2013 5:55 pm

Some coverage of the latest flareup, in Okkan. Well worth reading, in my view.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/33564

Moe Kyaw, 59, was caught by a mob on Tuesday afternoon in War Yon Daw, where Buddhists began attacks on Muslim communities on Tuesday, along with his family of five. The mob entered his home from two sides, chasing the family down the street and hacking at them with their blades before burning down the house.

“As we ran away they hit us with knives and machetes. All of my family has suffered,” he said. “My wife’s younger sister and my two daughters are missing. We haven’t had any information about where they are.”

Moe Kyaw, a proud patriarch, broke down in tears as he recounted how the mob sliced at his head with swords, cutting his hands as he raised them to protect himself.

“We know all of the attackers’ names. This is the first time that I’ve had a problem with my neighbors,” he said. “We respect Buddhists, even though we are Muslims.”


One guy whose shop was vandalized is a Muslim married to a Buddhist. His son is a Buddhist monk.

“I respect the Buddhists and even my son has become a monk,” said Tin Maung Than, a Muslim shop owner whose clothing store was attacked by a mob on Tuesday. “I do my best in life to get along with the communities here. But they have taken this opportunity to make life bad for my family.

“I don’t think this is religious violence. It’s just violence. Muslim people do not have enough protection here,” he continued. “Our Muslim people feel very vulnerable and weak.”


Moe Kyaw, the one attacked with swords, has a daughter who is a Buddhist and a member of Aung San Suu Kyi's political party.

Yin Yin San, the daughter-in-law of Moe Kyaw, the Muslim man attacked with swords in War Yon Daw, is a Buddhist and leading member of the local branch of the National League for Democracy (NLD), headed by opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi. Her husband lay beside her with deep gashes to his head and arms in a hospital bed as she told The Irrawaddy how the village had been emptied of Muslims.

“There are no Muslims left in the village. I saw the police just stand by and watch as the mob destroyed my house,” she said. “The police were afraid of the attackers.”

“I married a Muslim man five years ago. Nowadays, I am being attacked regularly for being married to a Muslim. They don’t want to see any Muslims walking on the streets.

“Five months ago some Buddhist monks began to make speeches about the 969 movement. After that the tensions began to rise. Many Buddhists told me to divorce my husband.


None of this looks to me like "justifiable self-defense against an attack". It looks a lot more like a pogrom set off by a minor squabble. SImilar situations occurred in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, tearing apart communities that had co-existed for years.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat May 04, 2013 5:55 pm

Alex123 wrote:I know someone who is getting seriously burned by trying to be nice... I wonder if in this cruel world being "nice" is really that good.

You're free to wonder that, but if you come to the conclusion that compassion, gentleness, and nonviolence are not worthwhile qualities for one striving to be free from suffering, then you are quite simply not a Buddhist anymore.

binocular wrote:It is self-defense, if Muslims were the ones to attack first.

And giving into aggression and hatred in "self-defense" is still unwholesome.

Are you enlightened?

Of course not, but I'm "enlightened" enough to know that killing is never wholesome.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 5:59 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:[
Are you enlightened?

Of course not, but I'm "enlightened" enough to know that killing is never wholesome.

:anjali:
May all beings be happy!
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat May 04, 2013 6:02 pm

A local monk takes a stand against the violence....

When a senior monk in Okkan, Shwe Nya War Sayadaw, spoke out against the violence on Tuesday, he implicated elements of the government in the attacks.

“We need to work together to stop this violence,” he told gathered monks at a monastery in the town. “This is not only good for Okkan, but good for Myanmar. If this conflict spreads to the whole country based on religious issues…there will be a coup. “So, if this continues to happen, Myanmar is headed in a dark direction.

“There are people playing with politics who are lighting the fires, opportunists. In this community, Buddhists and Muslims can live together in peace. We should not expel the Muslims.”

“If people burn down mosques,” he said, “the cycle of hate will never end.


Compare with Dhammapada, 3-6:

'He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me' — for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth.


Indeed, this Sayadaw is telling it as at is. Already jihadist groups are trying to take advantage of the situation.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 6:04 pm

I am all for peace and all,

But... What would motivate Buddhist (monks or laity) to do all those alleged things? How do we know that Buddhists really did it? After all those peaceful teachings in Dhammapada and various retreats people go through - why this uncharacteristic violence?

What if those people who did atrocities aren't real Buddhist?

Reflecting on lay life - yes becoming a peaceful meditating monk who minds his own business is the best. But apparently even that is not safe.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Coyote » Sat May 04, 2013 6:14 pm

Alex123 wrote:I am all for peace and all,

But... What would motivate Buddhist (monks or laity) to do all those alleged things? How do we know that Buddhists really did it? After all those peaceful teachings in Dhammapada and various retreats people go through - why this uncharacteristic violence?

What if those people who did atrocities aren't real Buddhist?


It would be interesting to see into people's minds. Then we could know for sure how "buddhist" such monks, or even the laity, who encourage violence are, or whether they are just being opportunistic. But we don't have this power and can only judge based on outside appearances. That there are people in orange robes, calling themselves bhikkhus, who encourage violence is enough. In the end it doesn't matter, because either way Buddhism is linked the the spread of ethnic violence, and I don't feel it is right to turn a blind eye to it.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:It really doesn't take any research. "They" are just people like you and me. Why do you want to spread hatred?


binocular wrote:If a stranger were to come to live in your house, without your invitation, would you just let him?
Would you let him have your house?
Would you consider it an act of hatred if you were to ask him to leave?


Mr Man wrote:binocular Your questions are not relevant.

binocular wrote:Explain. Why aren't they relevant?


I cannot see the relevance of your hypothetic questions to what I had written in reply to alex123 (or to the situation in Burma).
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat May 04, 2013 6:28 pm

Alex123 wrote:But... What would motivate Buddhist (monks or laity) to do all those alleged things?

Greed, hatred, and delusion.

Reflecting on lay life - yes becoming a peaceful meditating monk who minds his own business is the best. But apparently even that is not safe.

I hate to sound like I'm speaking in platitudes, but the only true safety is a mind undisturbed by defilements. A materially or politically comfortable live earned with violence is a shaky refuge indeed.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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