Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am

I think it would be entirely inappropriate for this forum to be used as an opportunity to propagate Christian concepts..on the other hand I think it would be a form of dishonesty to allow misinformation to go unremarked on.
Christian Theology does not hold that colours are mind-made in that sense.
It holds that colours are a quality inherent in an objectively exisisting and created world. And that creation is a constantly occurring and objective event intiated by God and perceptible to human beings who are endowed with permanent attas.
Further, that human beings are free to accept or reject that view.
Buddhists have a quite different view.
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 05, 2013 6:53 am

PeterB wrote: And that creation is a constantly occurring and objective event intiated by God and perceptible to human beings who are endowed with permanent attas.
Further, that human beings are free to accept or reject that view.
Which is, of course, an incoherent view, but it is what it is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Sun May 05, 2013 7:26 am

Its coherent to itself Tilt.
But that coherence depends on accepting or rejecting the fact that it is Revealed truth.
It is " foolishness to the Greeks " as St Paul said.
What I suggest is problematic is simply interpreting Christian Theology while wearing Buddhist spectacles.
Which is what is posited by the OP. It might be fun. It might meet an inner need for resolution for some former Christians.
But in the end the result is neither fish nor fowl.
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 05, 2013 7:42 am

PeterB wrote:Its coherent to itself Tilt.
But that coherence depends on accepting or rejecting the fact that it is Revealed truth.
Which, of course, does not have to be logical.

What I suggest is problematic is simply interpreting Christian Theology while wearing Buddhist spectacles.
Christian never intepret Buddhism by the yardstick of their notion of salvation?

Which is what is posited by the OP. It might be fun. It might meet an inner need for resolution for some former Christians.
But in the end the result is neither fish nor fowl.
Which is not to say that one cannot remark about the other.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 9:50 am

Zakattack wrote:
binocular wrote:But there are other forms of theism, such as some Hindu forms of theism, that are more sophisticated than that, and which Buddhist anti-theist arguments don't tackle.

I think Buddha simply focused on what is real & observable. The terms Buddha generally used were literal expressions of observable reality, such as "nibbana" or "nirvana", which literally mean something like "extinguishing heat"; cool & peaceful. Buddha also used the word "gods", to refer to various kinds of worldly power, such as a king that has power is a "god" (deity). Often words need to be examined for their root meanings because often words, possibly such as the Hindu 'Brahman', may have a natural (rather than personal) root. From a purely natural (& Buddhist) perspective, the problem with theist words is they have a tendency to reify & anthropomorphize. From natural, scientific & Buddhist perspectives, if it: (i) cannot be observed; & (ii) is poorly defined, then it is generally invalid. For example, the creative & destructive forces of nature, Buddhism calls 'cause & effect', 'arising & cessation', 'creation & destruction'. These are valid definitions for a mind free from delusion & hallucinatory imaginativeness. Buddha generally called a spade 'a spade'. Buddha did not call a spade "God". Imagine if I spoke to people, calling dogs 'cats', pigs 'sheep', red 'blue' & green 'pink'. People would think I have gone completely bonkers.


Since you are also talking about theisms in general:
Are you familiar with the Hindu conviction that the Buddha is an incarnation of God?
The story goes that God incarnates Himself as the Buddha in times when theists become unruly and untrustworthy.

I think you'll have a hard time trying to refute that kind of conception.
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby alan » Sun May 05, 2013 2:59 pm

Oh, PeterB, you have so let me down.
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 05, 2013 4:26 pm

Sambojjhanga wrote:So what do you all think? I realize my subject post is did Christianity borrow from Buddhism? I think it did. I


I don't know. However: just because two different teachings overlap in some things, it doesn't automatically follow that one borrowed from another.

1) They could have evolved and diverged from a similar core.
or
2) They could have evolved in parallel without one affecting another.


I don't believe the new age idea that "all religions are equal and lead to the same goal". Clearly they do not.

One religion teaches and promises 72 virgins in eternal afterlife. For a Hindu or a practicing Buddhist, this could be almost like hell.
Christianity teaches afterlife with God and his angels. Hindu teachings lead to formless states, while Buddhism goes even further (nibbāna without remainder).
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 5:30 pm

alan wrote:Oh, PeterB, you have so let me down.


How come?
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby Zakattack » Sun May 05, 2013 10:19 pm

binocular wrote:The story goes that God incarnates Himself as the Buddha in times when theists become unruly and untrustworthy.

I think you'll have a hard time trying to refute that kind of conception.

Definitely not. Easy as pie to refute. But I have much better things to do with my time. Like Ground, best you learn Buddhism before asserting & refuting this & that.

Ciao :roll:
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby Zakattack » Sun May 05, 2013 11:44 pm

PeterB wrote: I think it would be a form of dishonesty to allow misinformation to go unremarked on.
Christian Theology does not hold that colours are mind-made in that sense.
It holds that colours are a quality inherent in an objectively exisisting and created world.

Peter

Could you kindly provide a Biblical or other reference to support your view about Christian theology? Thank you. The Christian Bible does not refute God has mind. There are many references to the "mind of God". Further, the Bible contains these two salient views:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

James 3:9
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.

I think these quotes support Ground's theistic view of theism that colors are mind made preferences & ideas because the Bible states: (I) God created all things; and (ii) human beings are created in the image or likeness of God.

As for Buddha, his teaching supports the view I have asserted to Ground, from the beginning; that perception of the ways things really are is not an "idea" but a mere reflection of natural reality. Buddha did not assert an atman, person or God perceives. But instead, Buddha revealed the perceptual mental faculty perceives:

And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception. Khajjaniya Sutta

Thoughout this thread, my impression of Ground's view is it equates perception (sanna) with created ideas (sankhara papanca), which is similar to the theistic view. Where, for Buddha, perception was one thing & mental proliferation & imaging another.

:alien:
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Mon May 06, 2013 6:09 am

Zakattack, I am not a Buddhist, and I do not think that a Buddhist forum is a suitable venue to discuss Christian Theology..if you are interested there are Christian websites where discussion could be had. Including anthropomorphic ideas about the " mind " of God.
My only reason for joining the conversation was to demur from the view that Christianity borrowed from Buddhism.
That is my final post to this thread.
:anjali:
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby binocular » Mon May 06, 2013 6:59 am

Zakattack wrote:Definitely not. Easy as pie to refute.


Pffft. Not at all.


But I have much better things to do with my time. Like Ground, best you learn Buddhism before asserting & refuting this & that.


You mean - best first assert conviction in the Buddhist teachings, and then go and refute this and that?

:blink:
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby Zakattack » Mon May 06, 2013 10:20 am

PeterB wrote:Zakattack, I am not a Buddhist, and I do not think that a Buddhist forum is a suitable venue to discuss Christian Theology...

Voicing an opinion is fine but scriptures show Buddha & his followers did not avoid discussion, both positively & negatively, about Brahma.

PeterB wrote:My only reason for joining the conversation was to demur from the view that Christianity borrowed from Buddhism.

The video below includes many very learned Western scholars of theology, with some making the common observation that the revolutionary teachings of Jesus have no root in Judaism. For learned people, the view that Christianity borrowed from Buddhism is a possibility. For example, apart from the revolutionary teachings, the Bible portrays Jesus recommending the life of a mendicant to his apostles. Again, this probably has an Indian root. Were there contemplative mendicant traditions in the West or Middle East?







Greco-Buddhism, sometimes spelled Graeco-Buddhism, refers to the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the Indian sub-continent, especially in modern Afghanistan, Pakistan and north-western border regions of modern India. It was a cultural consequence of a long chain of interactions begun by Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule in the area for some centuries, and extended during flourishing of the Hellenized empire of the Kushans. Greco-Buddhism influenced the artistic, and perhaps the spiritual development of Buddhism, particularly Mahayana Buddhism, which represents one of the two main branches of Buddhism. The Buddhist religious system was then adopted in Central and Northeastern Asia, from the 1st century CE, ultimately spreading to China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Postby ground » Mon May 06, 2013 10:47 am

binocular wrote:
ground wrote:Same source, same essence, same basis. In addition: same effect of practice (focus and exclusion, resulting in faith, contentment, confidence and even happiness). However the ideas qua self-expressions by means of words are different. So it is similar to colors. All colors are the same in terms of source, essence, basis and visual effect qua effect ... however individuals actually do prefer different colors. That does however not render one color superior to the other when the sphere of preference, i.e. mere like and dislike, is left behind.


In that case, you seem to be arguing for an "anything goes, anything is good enough" stance.

No arguinng for anything. nothing goes but you may cultivate ideas that anything or something goes.

binocular wrote:Even shooting heroin up one's veins results in faith, contentment, confidence and even happiness -- for some time.

If so then there is similarity with religions like christianity and buddhism. The difference being that ideas are effective in the context of christianity and buddhism. Being thirsty for ideas some prefer christianity others prefer buddhism. Ideas may cause agreeable feelings like colors may. Therefore there is preference, like and dislike of ideas. :sage:
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