The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
Same can be said "read ADL" and eventually wholesomeness (sati + paññā) will arise.
Buddha never said "doing something is the cause of wisdom", he said "hearing the Dhamma is". But without right consideration, no understanding. It is beyond anyone's control whether there's right consideration or not.
Now you have stepped outside the Dhamma. If this is what Sujin teaches, it is rather shocking.
If one is dropped into a deep lake, one needs to swim so not to drown. Of course swimming is fully conditioned, one of the conditions being the application of wise effort RIGHT NOW.
No, swimming is conditioned by right and thourough understanding of anattaness. A sutta for you:
Like a weak man come to the bank of river Ganges, full to the brim with over flowing banks would say I will cut the stream of the river, with my hands and safely cross the river. It is not posssible that he would cross the river. In the same manner, when the Teaching is given for the cessation of the view of self, the mind does not spring, delight and settle to be released. It should be known as the nature of that weak man. Like a strong man come to the bank of river Ganges, full to the brim with over flowing banks would say I will cut the stream of the river, with my hands and safely cross the river. It is posssible that he would cross the river. In the same manner, Ananda, when the Teaching is given for the cessation of the view of self, the mind springs, delights and settles to be released, it should be known as the nature of the strong man.. .
http://www.vipassana.info/064-maha-malu ... tta-e1.htm
And here you making the same error that robertk does of misrepresenting the Dhamma by taking a quotation out of context. What the text goes on to say is:
  • Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world..

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally appeased, in one point, without thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration, abides in the second jhana--- in the third jhana—in the fourth jhana. Attained to it, he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element.:This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction. With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things he arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming all perceptions of matter and anger, not attending to various perceptions, with space is boundless abides in the sphere of space. Attained to it, he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs, are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, void, devoid of a self.. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction..With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires.If he does not come to the destruction of desires on account of greed and interest for those same things, he arises spontaneously with the destruction of the five lower bonds not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming all peceptions of space, with consciousness is boundless, abides in the sphere of consciousness.--overcoming all the sphere of conscioussness, with there is nothing, abides in the sphere of no-thingness Attained to it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs::are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, void, devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction. With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things, he arises spontaneously with the destruction of the five lower bonds not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for the dispelling of the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Venerable sir, when this is the path and the method for the destruction of the five lower bonds for the sensual world, why does a certain bhikkhu talk of a release of mind and a release through wisdom? Ananda, that is the difference in the maturity of the mental faculties.

    The Blessed One said that and venerable Ananda delighted in the words of the Blessed One.
Very clearly the Buddha is advocating doing, of acting, as a way of cultivating insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:Do we really need to use terms like "Sujinists" (I know Tilt's already used it) but I just hope that we don't make this a habit, but respect each other as fellow Dhamma practitioners.

It just sounds like a dismissive term, kind of like some folks have been dismissive of what is termed "formal practice."
Some folks? You mean the Sujinists who are dismissive of formal practice, characterizing it as attachment to rules and ritual based in lobha? Is my using "Sujinist" disrespectful? I don't think so. It simply identifies of whom I am speaking, followers of Sujin, the person who is teaching these extreme beliefs to her followers. See: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... jin#p35840

As for being "dismissive," see the very opening line of the OP of this thread which is a nasty attack on the meditative traditions, particularly vipassana traditions (but as the thread continues, we see it certainly applies to all the meditative Theravadin traditions): "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path."

See also: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 210#p16923
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:As for being "dismissive," see the very opening line of the OP of this thread which is a nasty attack on the meditative traditions, particularly vipassana traditions (but as the thread continues, we see it certainly applies to all the meditative Theravadin traditions): "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path."
Since this is still going -
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?
Who teaches such a thing? For example, Western psychology:
Several definitions of mindfulness have been used in modern psychology. According to various prominent psychological definitions, Mindfulness refers to a psychological quality that involves
bringing one’s complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis,[8]
or involves
paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally,[8]
or involves
a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental, present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is.[9]
Bishop, Lau, and colleagues (2004)[10] offered a two-component model of mindfulness:
The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance.[10]:232
Most modern Buddhists I've met think this is mindfulness - especially that element of being accepting and non-judgmental.

In Mindfulness Defined, Thanissaro Bhikkhu discusses the problems around this term and how it is sometimes used.

I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote: Who teaches such a thing? For example, Western psychology:
The point is, which Buddhist teachers, which is how I would read robertk's criticism.
I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
You have, however, not shown that to be the case, nor has robertk is his attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
You have, however, not shown that to be the case, nor has robertk is his attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice.
I think binocular's point is fair enough... in common parlance, that's precisely how mindfulness is understood.
The link above wrote:The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance
My friend Louise (who incidentally has done a Goenka retreat in the past) provided me a nearly identical understanding of mindfulness just last week, which it seems is derived from CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy). She was very surprised (yet not unimpressed) when I mentioned about tying mindfulness back to Right View and Right Effort etc. as part of the broader application of the N8P... as she saw it very much as per the common parlance understanding that Robert and Binocular have described.

Therefore there's no necessity to take such a statement in itself as an "attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

binocular wrote:
Several definitions of mindfulness have been used in modern psychology. According to various prominent psychological definitions, Mindfulness refers to a psychological quality that involves
bringing one’s complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis,[8]
or involves
paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally,[8]
or involves
a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental, present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is.[9]
Bishop, Lau, and colleagues (2004)[10] offered a two-component model of mindfulness:
The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance.[10]:232
Most modern Buddhists I've met think this is mindfulness - especially that element of being accepting and non-judgmental.

In Mindfulness Defined, Thanissaro Bhikkhu discusses the problems around this term and how it is sometimes used.

I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
I don't see where a single one of the descriptions Robert used are justified, even in relation to the (yes, probably incomplete) description of mindfulness above. Namely:
1) tedious
2) approximation of the here and now
3) merely concentration
4) without any sati
5) without any panna
6) wrong path.

The only thing which is reasonably justified is that is how some people understand mindfulness. How "common" it is, is debatable. Majority? Strong minority? Who knows.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: I think binocular's point is fair enough... in common parlance, that's precisely how mindfulness is understood.
I am not so much worried about the "common paralance" understanding of mindfulness. That has been debated in a number of different threads. It is, however, the nasty robertk characterization of "tedious focusing" and what follows that that binocular echos: "I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration." Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.
Maybe. Or it could just be saying that CBT (and any retreat-based equivalents) are not Dhamma, because they are not founded in the forerunner of Right View.

You can see back here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p227898 - that it was never intended as a "wholesale dismissal" of Mahasi practice. In that topic it is made quite clear why he says mindfulness cannot be "tedious"... namely because it is kusala.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.
Maybe. Or it could just be saying that CBT (and any retreat-based equivalents) are not Dhamma, because they are not founded in the forerunner of Right View.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I don't give a rat's tookus about CBT. No one, until you who just brought it up, has been talking about CBT. And binocular's "Western Psychology," which has not been a topic of discussuion in this thread until now, is also something that is beside the point. CBT and Western Psychology are a smelly red fish to the main topic. I have been quite clearly talking about practice in the context of the Eightfold Path, as has been pretty much everyone else who has been disagreeing with robertk's wholesale dismissal of meditation practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

From the aforementioned link... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p227898
Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"
Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?
Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

From the aforementioned link...
Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"
Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?
Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.

I have seen nothing, however, in what robertk has said to date that mitigates, repudiates the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.
I have... twice.

Taken in context, there's no way it could possibly be interpreted as a "wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Okay. So, you are quoting stuff from another thread. So, if we are going to appeal to old threads here is robertk being plain spoken: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 210#p16923 and this is consistent this thread's OP:
  • The Buddha never taught vipassana as a technique, but sadly ,and I think contributing to the decline of the sasana , in recent times there are groups who have co-opted the word to mean some type of focusing on an object/objects. It is quite easy to fool people as if they quote the satipatthana sutta (which includes countless number of objects) then it is assumed the technique is 'vipassana'. However I believe little can be done to help anyone who thinks they are 'doing' vipassana, the attachment runs too deep usually.
Quite frankly, I think what we see in this thread clearly vitiates any sort of attempt at mitigation of his anti-meditation stance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p228510
  • It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this thread:
robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Robert but how about trying sitting without any thought of I'm doing this "so understanding can grow" maybe you would enjoy it in it's own right (like swimming). Maybe you would see different things.

Why do you open a dhamma book? Is it any different?

Who is judging the quality of the different activities?
Hi mr man,
yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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