The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 04, 2013 3:20 am

dhamma follower wrote:
Same can be said "read ADL" and eventually wholesomeness (sati + paññā) will arise.


Buddha never said "doing something is the cause of wisdom", he said "hearing the Dhamma is". But without right consideration, no understanding. It is beyond anyone's control whether there's right consideration or not.
Now you have stepped outside the Dhamma. If this is what Sujin teaches, it is rather shocking.

If one is dropped into a deep lake, one needs to swim so not to drown. Of course swimming is fully conditioned, one of the conditions being the application of wise effort RIGHT NOW.


No, swimming is conditioned by right and thourough understanding of anattaness. A sutta for you:

Like a weak man come to the bank of river Ganges, full to the brim with over flowing banks would say I will cut the stream of the river, with my hands and safely cross the river. It is not posssible that he would cross the river. In the same manner, when the Teaching is given for the cessation of the view of self, the mind does not spring, delight and settle to be released. It should be known as the nature of that weak man. Like a strong man come to the bank of river Ganges, full to the brim with over flowing banks would say I will cut the stream of the river, with my hands and safely cross the river. It is posssible that he would cross the river. In the same manner, Ananda, when the Teaching is given for the cessation of the view of self, the mind springs, delights and settles to be released, it should be known as the nature of the strong man.. .

http://www.vipassana.info/064-maha-malu ... tta-e1.htm


And here you making the same error that robertk does of misrepresenting the Dhamma by taking a quotation out of context. What the text goes on to say is:

    Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world..

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally appeased, in one point, without thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration, abides in the second jhana--- in the third jhana—in the fourth jhana. Attained to it, he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element.:This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction. With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things he arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming all perceptions of matter and anger, not attending to various perceptions, with space is boundless abides in the sphere of space. Attained to it, he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs, are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, void, devoid of a self.. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction..With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires.If he does not come to the destruction of desires on account of greed and interest for those same things, he arises spontaneously with the destruction of the five lower bonds not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Again, Ananda, the bhikkhu overcoming all peceptions of space, with consciousness is boundless, abides in the sphere of consciousness.--overcoming all the sphere of conscioussness, with there is nothing, abides in the sphere of no-thingness Attained to it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs::are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, void, devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction. With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things, he arises spontaneously with the destruction of the five lower bonds not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for the dispelling of the five lower bonds for the sensual world.

    Venerable sir, when this is the path and the method for the destruction of the five lower bonds for the sensual world, why does a certain bhikkhu talk of a release of mind and a release through wisdom? Ananda, that is the difference in the maturity of the mental faculties.

    The Blessed One said that and venerable Ananda delighted in the words of the Blessed One.
Very clearly the Buddha is advocating doing, of acting, as a way of cultivating insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 04, 2013 5:30 am

Dan74 wrote:Do we really need to use terms like "Sujinists" (I know Tilt's already used it) but I just hope that we don't make this a habit, but respect each other as fellow Dhamma practitioners.

It just sounds like a dismissive term, kind of like some folks have been dismissive of what is termed "formal practice."
Some folks? You mean the Sujinists who are dismissive of formal practice, characterizing it as attachment to rules and ritual based in lobha? Is my using "Sujinist" disrespectful? I don't think so. It simply identifies of whom I am speaking, followers of Sujin, the person who is teaching these extreme beliefs to her followers. See: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... jin#p35840

As for being "dismissive," see the very opening line of the OP of this thread which is a nasty attack on the meditative traditions, particularly vipassana traditions (but as the thread continues, we see it certainly applies to all the meditative Theravadin traditions): "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path."

See also: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1210#p16923
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 6:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As for being "dismissive," see the very opening line of the OP of this thread which is a nasty attack on the meditative traditions, particularly vipassana traditions (but as the thread continues, we see it certainly applies to all the meditative Theravadin traditions): "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path."


Since this is still going -

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?


Who teaches such a thing? For example, Western psychology:

Several definitions of mindfulness have been used in modern psychology. According to various prominent psychological definitions, Mindfulness refers to a psychological quality that involves
bringing one’s complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis,[8]
or involves
paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally,[8]
or involves
a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental, present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is.[9]
Bishop, Lau, and colleagues (2004)[10] offered a two-component model of mindfulness:
The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance.[10]:232


Most modern Buddhists I've met think this is mindfulness - especially that element of being accepting and non-judgmental.

In Mindfulness Defined, Thanissaro Bhikkhu discusses the problems around this term and how it is sometimes used.

I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 05, 2013 7:08 pm

binocular wrote:Who teaches such a thing? For example, Western psychology:
The point is, which Buddhist teachers, which is how I would read robertk's criticism.

I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
You have, however, not shown that to be the case, nor has robertk is his attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 05, 2013 10:55 pm

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.
You have, however, not shown that to be the case, nor has robertk is his attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice.

I think binocular's point is fair enough... in common parlance, that's precisely how mindfulness is understood.

The link above wrote:The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance

My friend Louise (who incidentally has done a Goenka retreat in the past) provided me a nearly identical understanding of mindfulness just last week, which it seems is derived from CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy). She was very surprised (yet not unimpressed) when I mentioned about tying mindfulness back to Right View and Right Effort etc. as part of the broader application of the N8P... as she saw it very much as per the common parlance understanding that Robert and Binocular have described.

Therefore there's no necessity to take such a statement in itself as an "attempt at dismissing any sort of meditation practice".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Sun May 05, 2013 11:58 pm

binocular wrote:
Several definitions of mindfulness have been used in modern psychology. According to various prominent psychological definitions, Mindfulness refers to a psychological quality that involves
bringing one’s complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis,[8]
or involves
paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally,[8]
or involves
a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental, present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is.[9]
Bishop, Lau, and colleagues (2004)[10] offered a two-component model of mindfulness:
The first component [of mindfulness] involves the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, thereby allowing for increased recognition of mental events in the present moment. The second component involves adopting a particular orientation toward one’s experiences in the present moment, an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance.[10]:232


Most modern Buddhists I've met think this is mindfulness - especially that element of being accepting and non-judgmental.

In Mindfulness Defined, Thanissaro Bhikkhu discusses the problems around this term and how it is sometimes used.

I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration.

I don't see where a single one of the descriptions Robert used are justified, even in relation to the (yes, probably incomplete) description of mindfulness above. Namely:
1) tedious
2) approximation of the here and now
3) merely concentration
4) without any sati
5) without any panna
6) wrong path.

The only thing which is reasonably justified is that is how some people understand mindfulness. How "common" it is, is debatable. Majority? Strong minority? Who knows.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 1:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:I think binocular's point is fair enough... in common parlance, that's precisely how mindfulness is understood.
I am not so much worried about the "common paralance" understanding of mindfulness. That has been debated in a number of different threads. It is, however, the nasty robertk characterization of "tedious focusing" and what follows that that binocular echos: "I agree that what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focusing on an approximation of the here and now, it is merely concentration." Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 06, 2013 1:12 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.

Maybe. Or it could just be saying that CBT (and any retreat-based equivalents) are not Dhamma, because they are not founded in the forerunner of Right View.

You can see back here - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20#p227898 - that it was never intended as a "wholesale dismissal" of Mahasi practice. In that topic it is made quite clear why he says mindfulness cannot be "tedious"... namely because it is kusala.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 1:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.

Maybe. Or it could just be saying that CBT (and any retreat-based equivalents) are not Dhamma, because they are not founded in the forerunner of Right View.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I don't give a rat's tookus about CBT. No one, until you who just brought it up, has been talking about CBT. And binocular's "Western Psychology," which has not been a topic of discussuion in this thread until now, is also something that is beside the point. CBT and Western Psychology are a smelly red fish to the main topic. I have been quite clearly talking about practice in the context of the Eightfold Path, as has been pretty much everyone else who has been disagreeing with robertk's wholesale dismissal of meditation practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 06, 2013 1:31 am

Greetings,

From the aforementioned link... viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20#p227898

Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.

Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"

Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?

Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 1:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

From the aforementioned link...
Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.

Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"

Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?

Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.

I have seen nothing, however, in what robertk has said to date that mitigates, repudiates the OP.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 06, 2013 1:53 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.

I have... twice.

Taken in context, there's no way it could possibly be interpreted as a "wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am

Okay. So, you are quoting stuff from another thread. So, if we are going to appeal to old threads here is robertk being plain spoken: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1210#p16923 and this is consistent this thread's OP:

    The Buddha never taught vipassana as a technique, but sadly ,and I think contributing to the decline of the sasana , in recent times there are groups who have co-opted the word to mean some type of focusing on an object/objects. It is quite easy to fool people as if they quote the satipatthana sutta (which includes countless number of objects) then it is assumed the technique is 'vipassana'. However I believe little can be done to help anyone who thinks they are 'doing' vipassana, the attachment runs too deep usually.

Quite frankly, I think what we see in this thread clearly vitiates any sort of attempt at mitigation of his anti-meditation stance.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:21 am

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=60#p228510

    It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:32 am

One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this thread:

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Robert but how about trying sitting without any thought of I'm doing this "so understanding can grow" maybe you would enjoy it in it's own right (like swimming). Maybe you would see different things.

Why do you open a dhamma book? Is it any different?

Who is judging the quality of the different activities?

Hi mr man,
yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:36 am

And another viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=180#p229309 :

robertk wrote:Tilt:
It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as direct away of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight
.

Think of all the suttas that say seeing and color must be directly known, must be seen with wisdom. Yet I have even heard of people closing their eyes thinking this is part of 'doing vipasaana". (I realize this is a very extreme case, possibly no Dhammawheel members would think that, but it does show the confusions that exist about what 'meditation' really is in the Buddhist sense).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Mon May 06, 2013 3:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly). Your posts have sometimes seemed rude, especially in the way you referred to a well-respected Teacher, Khun Sujin, but I tried to attribute that to different ways of speech in different countries - those from the USA are often blunt to the point where those in other countries are offended.
Equally, you may be reading into Roberts' posts an emotion that was not intended.

Anyway - helpful discussion is always interesting - but Dhamma chest bumping is a little tiring.....

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 3:16 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly).
To you, but they do seem snide at times to me.

Your posts have sometimes seemed rude, especially in the way you referred to a well-respected Teacher, Khun Sujin, but I tried to attribute that to different ways of speech in different countries - those from the USA are often blunt to the point where those in other countries are offended.
As for Sujin, I find little in her teachings to respect, especially after listening to the linked Q&A in this thread, as she and her student talked about the metta practice of of Buddhists who do not follow her way. It is really sad.

Equally, you may be reading into Roberts' posts an emotion that was not intended.
Maybe, but I do not think so.

Anyway - helpful discussion is always interesting - but Dhamma chest bumping is a little tiring.....
The OP in this thread opened the door for looking at Sujin's teachings, which we have seen as characterizing sitting meditation as naught more than adherence to rules and ritual grounded in lobha by her followers here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 06, 2013 3:23 am

Greetings,

cooran wrote:I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous...

For what it's worth, I concur with this statement from Cooran.

I find the (Dhamma Wheel-era) Robert to be a model of, well... good manners and equanimity!

As such, he is a positive advertisement for the approach to the Dhamma that he presents.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 4:30 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly).
If you are going to accuse me of misunderstanding then show me what it is, exactly, that I am misunderstanding. It does no good, and it means little, making an accusation such as this without actually showing what it is that I am supposedly misunderstanding. Am I misunderstanding his characterization of meditation as a Dhamma practice? Or am I misunderstanding his presentation?

    robertk wrote:Hi mr man,
    yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

    For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.
Shall we take a careful look at this? You can tell me what I have misunderstood, and I'll tell you why I think it is snide.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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