in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

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in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby frank k » Mon May 06, 2013 1:53 am

I noticed that both Thanissaro and B.Bodhi use the english expression "in dependence" to translate certain phrases. This happens in many suttas, links to mn 140 as an example below.

The reason this ambiguity is particularly bothersome, I'm working on the audio sutta project, where suttas are consumed by listening rather than reading text.

When you see "in dependence" on paper, it's fairly easy to comprehend, however, when you hear an audio sutta say "in dependence" , it sounds like "independence" , which is exactly the opposite of what it is intended to convey. I've recorded many suttas already that uses that expression, and I can't tell you how annoying it is for your ears and mind to hear "independence", do a double take, and then quickly realize it's the opposite of what you think you just heard.

Is there some other expression that would work better? Perhaps "through dependence" or "dependent on..." (which would be a different grammar case I realize), but "in dependence" just doesn't work well in audio.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.suttacentral.net/new/mn140/pi/
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby Dmytro » Mon May 06, 2013 3:32 am

Hi Frank,

Regarding 'paṭicca', I would advocate 'with ... as a (requisite) condition' or perhaps 'conditioned (by)'.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5974#p93367

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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 3:55 am

frank k wrote: "in dependence" just doesn't work well in audio.
A slight pause between the two words with a slight emphasis on the second word would work. Or you could write to the two bhikkhus and see what they might suggest.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby SamBodhi » Mon May 06, 2013 5:59 am

Perhaps you could try "contingent upon"?

As in, "that which is in dependence with..."

-"that which is contingent upon..."


I am somewhat unsure about the context. I'll double check the links you provided, but I think this might work.

edit:
From the first link you provided (Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta) I found, "In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."
My suggestion would be, "Contingent on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."

It seems like it fits, but my vocabulary is personally quite...flexible I suppose.

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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby frank k » Mon May 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Tiltbillings,
For the audio tipitaka project, we read the translations exactly as is, to ensure accuracy and to prevent any possibility that any slight modification would misrepresent the author's intentions. But next time I get a chance to ask Thanissaro or B.Bodhi, I'll ask them about alternate ideas to substitute in place of " in dependence". I'm asking more for my personal edification, for that day in the future when I do some of my own translations of pali excerpts.

Thanks for that thread on paticca Dmytro. Very educational!

List of proposed alternate ideas for "in dependence"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(B.Bodhi and Thanissaro use "in dependence") In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."
Sambodhi suggests, "Contingent on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."
Dmytro: "With the requisite condition of sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure"
dmytro: "conditioned by sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure"
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby perkele » Mon May 06, 2013 6:07 pm

List of proposed alternate ideas for "in dependence"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(B.Bodhi and Thanissaro use "in dependence") In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."
Sambodhi suggests, "Contingent on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure."
Dmytro: "With the requisite condition of sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure"
dmytro: "conditioned by sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure"

Another simple suggestion:
Dependent (up)on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure.

Sadhu for the work you have set out to do.
Reading the suttas as a regular practice of recollection, readjusting and invigorating one's motivation is a great thing.
Making the suttas available for listening might be a great support for many.

Is it this project you are referring to?
http://readingfaithfully.org/listening-faithfully/

May the force be with you.
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Re: in dependence is ambiguous (sounds like "independence")

Postby frank k » Tue May 07, 2013 2:54 pm

Perkele,
I also thought "dependent" would be a good fit, but I figured it would be the wrong grammatical tense/case to match the pali. I'm still relatively beginner at pali. I asked on another thread, I don't remember if it was answered, when doing sutta translations from pali to another language, how much license should translators take in changing grammatical tense and case to make translation sound smoother and easier to digest? In cases such as this one where "dependent" would the take the ambiguity and clunkiness out of the expression "in dependence".

Our main sutta audio project is on audtip.org. Readingfaithfully's suttas are a project of one of our founders Ven. Bkh. Thanks for the encouraging words. In the process of working on audtip.org, I've been personally re-digesting the suttas in a different way, listening instead of reading, and memorizing pali suttas. There really is different dimension to comprehending the suttas individually, and seeing the connections between them when you have even a few important pieces of it memorized. There definitely is a lot of merit to the old school oral tradition.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
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