No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Tue May 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Zakattack wrote:
frank k wrote:In the Chinese Agama parallel to anapana 16 steps, they are much more explicit in step 3 of anapanassati, "sabba kaaya patisamvedi", "experiencing the whole [anatomical] body".

...The Pali states:
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.

... The different bodies...


However many different bodies, the first tetrad is to experience them all alongside the breath, and then to calm involvement with that (calming kaya-sankhara). You say that

Step 3 of anapanassati "sabba kaaya patisamvedi" is experiencing/knowing/feeling how the state of mind influences the breathing and how the breathing, in turn, influences the physical body.


...but I find that step three is simply training in order to experience all such bodies, whereby step four is training to calm any & all sankhara to do with them. This includes the breath, but is certainly not limited to that one among many.

Focus on the breath to the exclusion of other bodies seems to go against what step three instructs, as far as I can see.

But some people seem to conflate satipatthana, kayagatasati, and anapanasati, which generates differences in phrasing while the meaning may actually be in alignment.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Ben » Tue May 07, 2013 10:52 pm

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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby frank k » Wed May 08, 2013 3:43 am

Zack,
I'm aware of the Vism. interpretation of kaya as whole "body of breath" for step 3 anapana. You are probably aware of the schools of Theravada that interpret step 3 as whole anatomical body. I'm not here to debate which interpretation is correct, believe whatever works for you. Whatever interpretation people believe, just for your reference consider the Chinese Agama version of step 3 anapana clearly, unambiguously, and with copious similes asserts the "whole anatomical body" interpretation.

Regarding the statement :
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.

I take that to mean step 1 and 2 of anapana, (clear knowing of long/short in/out breath), count as a physical "kaaya" to justify it's place in the first tetrad of anapanasati 16 steps and first tetrad satipatthana, kayaanupassi.

Also, looking at MN 119, (thanissaro trans. from ATI)
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman ...

For the "whole anatomical body", that sutta passage makes sense. If we go with "body of breath", how exactly do you permeate, pervade, suffuse and fill "body of breath" with pleasure and rapture? Does "body of breath" have a nervous system that sends signals of piti and sukha to the brain?

Note all 4 jhana similes (corresponding to 4 jhaanas) use that statement "He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure"

Also, the canonical formula for 3rd jhana states "sukhanca kayena patisamvedi". Kaya as anatomical body would seem to be the most natural interpretation.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 08, 2013 8:44 am

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO some interpretations of the 4 tetrads are basically just describing satipatthana practice, which seems to me missing the point.


Actually, the point is the suppression of the hindrances and bringing the awakening factors to fulfillment by development.
In this respect, we can see that anapanasati is itself simply a certain way of doing satipatthana, one which fulfills satipatthana and, in short, facilitates jhana.)


I'm not following your logic, Dave. Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana. I agree that you can look at the 4 tetrads simply as a way of "doing" satipatthana - but then why bother with the 4 tetrad approach, why not just work directly with the 4 frames of satipatthana as per MN10?
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Wed May 08, 2013 11:19 am

porpoise wrote:
daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO some interpretations of the 4 tetrads are basically just describing satipatthana practice, which seems to me missing the point.


Actually, the point is the suppression of the hindrances and bringing the awakening factors to fulfillment by development.
In this respect, we can see that anapanasati is itself simply a certain way of doing satipatthana, one which fulfills satipatthana and, in short, facilitates jhana.)


I'm not following your logic, Dave.


Well, let's have a look.

Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana.


Since the hindrances and awakening factors are common to all versions of the Satipatthana Sutta's fourth category, I think they are indeed both aspects of satipatthana. Furthermore, since samatha and vipassana are paired qualities it seems to me that thinking of them as dichotomous halves of practice is rather inaccurate. One or another may be natively more robust, or one or another may be where one's awareness gives emphasis, but they go hand in hand and ought to be brought into balance as much as possible at every stage of practice.

I agree that you can look at the 4 tetrads simply as a way of "doing" satipatthana - but then why bother with the 4 tetrad approach, why not just work directly with the 4 frames of satipatthana as per MN10?


Anapanasati is already working directly with the 4 frames, and fulfills them as well, so you seem to be assuming something here which I don't follow. The answer to "why bother" is that you can't do anapanasati correctly (or, for great fruit & benefit) in the first place without it fulfilling satipatthana, which is how one brings the awakening factors to fulfillment by development. Doing this "...dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment"...

MN 118 wrote:...is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Wed May 08, 2013 12:01 pm

frank k wrote:Whatever interpretation people believe, just for your reference consider the Chinese Agama version of step 3 anapana clearly, unambiguously, and with copious similes asserts the "whole anatomical body" interpretation.

There is no vipassana here. It was previously mentioned, the phrase: "He trains himself", which precedes each of the last 14 stages of Anapanasati, refers to three trainings occurring, in higher morality, higher concentration & higher wisdom. When it is experienced: "abandoning attachment & craving results in breathing calming, body calming, mind calming, peace (nirodha) growing,etc"; this is a preliminary insight into the Four Noble Truths. This is higher training in wisdom.

frank k wrote:Regarding the statement :
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.

I take that to mean step 1 and 2 of anapana, (clear knowing of long/short in/out breath), count as a physical "kaaya" to justify it's place in the first tetrad of anapanasati 16 steps and first tetrad satipatthana, kayaanupassi.

This cannot be the reality because the phrase "I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies" is used to summarise the essence & essential aspects of the tetrad. Step 1 and 2 are not essential parts of the training as the phrase: "He trains himself" does not precede them.

frank k wrote:Also, looking at MN 119, (thanissaro trans. from ATI)
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman ...

For the "whole anatomical body", that sutta passage makes sense. If we go with "body of breath", how exactly do you permeate, pervade, suffuse and fill "body of breath" with pleasure and rapture? Does "body of breath" have a nervous system that sends signals of piti and sukha to the brain?

This point is unnecessary. It was previously mentioned "sabba kaya" refers to three kinds of kaya: breath body, physical body (rupa kaya) & mental body (nama kaya).

frank k wrote:Note all 4 jhana similes (corresponding to 4 jhaanas) use that statement "He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure"

Also, the canonical formula for 3rd jhana states "sukhanca kayena patisamvedi". Kaya as anatomical body would seem to be the most natural interpretation.


The word 'kaya' does not necessarily mean "anatomical body". This is a materialistic interpretation. The word 'kaya' means 'group' or 'collection', such as in 'Nikaya'. The phrase: "sakkāya-diṭṭhi" does not refer to having self-view in relation to the anatomical body. Instead, it refers to having self-view in relation to the entire collection or group (kaya) of the five aggregates. In relation to jhana, this quote below sums up the use of 'kaya' with jhana:

Atthi kho, brahme, añño kāyo, taṃ tvaṃ na jānāsi na passasi; tamahaṃ jānāmi passāmi. Atthi kho, brahme, ābhassarā nāma kāyo yato tvaṃ cuto idhūpapanno

There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don't know, don't see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here.

Brahma-nimantanika Sutta

In MN 1, Ābhassare ābhassarato sañjānāti (perceives the luminous gods as luminous gods) refers to the 1st jhana.

To add, although the entire anatomical body may be pervaded by rapture & pleasure, this does not necessarily mean the practitioner is consciously aware of it, in the preliminary jhanas. Consciousness arises dependent on a sense object & will establish itself on the coarsest objects. When Step 4 is complete, i.e., breathing tranquilised, the anatomical body will also be tranquillised. What results is rapture & happiness become the coarsest objects & consciousness will establish there but not necessarily within the anatomical body. When Step 4 is fully complete, the breathing & body are too refined for consciousness to establish there. This is natural law. Earlier, it was said: "Does body of breath have a nervous system that sends signals of piti and sukha to the brain?" If pit and sukkha are predominant in the brain, consciousness will establish there (rather than within the lower physical body).

:alien:
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Wed May 08, 2013 12:11 pm

Ben wrote:Please be aware of DW's terms of service to avoid posts disappearing from view.

Thank you, Ben. I chose not to quote the source because, in my opinion, the source is too complex a work & not particularly beneficial to read & may lead to confusion.

:smile:
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 08, 2013 12:41 pm

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana.


Since the hindrances and awakening factors are common to all versions of the Satipatthana Sutta's fourth category, I think they are indeed both aspects of satipatthana.


But in the 4th frame of the Satipatthana Sutta the practice being described is mindfulness of the hindrances, there is no mention of suppressing them - and there is also no mention of jhana, or of absorption factors like piti and sukha.
It still looks to me like the 4 frames of the Satipatthana Sutta and the the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta are functionally describing quite different things - the former is concerned with developing sati as a basis for insight, the latter is concerned with developing samatha as a basis for insight.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby reflection » Wed May 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Sati and samatha are not so different. In my experience you can't really have one without the other. They support each other, so to develop one is to develop the other. In a mind that's not calm, mindfulness will fall apart. Also without mindfulness, the mind easily becomes disturbed. So in my humble opinion, all this detailed discussion of what to do with what part of which sutta is missing the point. When one knows what mindfulness and calm are really like, not when they are weak but when they are strong, there is no need for such step-by-step analysis.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm

porpoise wrote:
daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana.


Since the hindrances and awakening factors are common to all versions of the Satipatthana Sutta's fourth category, I think they are indeed both aspects of satipatthana.


But in the 4th frame of the Satipatthana Sutta the practice being described is mindfulness of the hindrances, there is no mention of suppressing them


Well, mindfulness and action are different aspects of the thing; first one has to see what's what, and then one can do something about it, as below:

MN 10 wrote:"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)


So suppressing & abandoning are indeed mentioned. We can see that first there is sati in terms of the presence or absence of the hindrances, which leads to dhamma-investigation (arising & ceasing), energy, and so on. The awakening factors oppose the hindrances, and vice versa - feeding one side starves the other.

And there is indeed mention of jhana via the seven awakening factors.

Both vipassana and samatha have a share in clear knowing; one oughtn't to develop them as though they were mutually exclusive. Samatha addresses passion, vipassana addresses delusion, both are required, and both are developed via satipatthana. Anapanasati is simply a mode of satipatthana, but it isn't favoring samatha to the exclusion of vipassana - that pair obtains throughout satipatthana practice, in any mode.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Wed May 08, 2013 10:38 pm

Zakattack wrote:
frank k wrote:In the Chinese Agama parallel to anapana 16 steps, they are much more explicit in step 3 of anapanassati, "sabba kaaya patisamvedi", "experiencing the whole [anatomical] body".

In the Pali, such an interpretation does not arise.

The Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā includes both the mental body (nāmakāya) and the form body (rūpakāya) under the third step of mindfulness of breathing:

    How is it that he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body', he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the whole body'?

    [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation]

    Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body.

    What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body.

    What is the material body? The four great entities and the materiality derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body formations: this is the material body.

    How is he acquainted with these bodies? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is established (founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies. When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long outbreaths, ... through short in-breaths, ... through short out-breaths, his mindfulness is established (founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies.

Zakattack wrote:
frank k wrote:Note all 4 jhana similes (corresponding to 4 jhaanas) use that statement "He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure"


The word 'kaya' does not necessarily mean "anatomical body". This is a materialistic interpretation.

The commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta explains this passage as follows:

    “This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. “He drenches:” he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. “Steeps:” to flow all over. “Fills:” like filling a bellows with air. “Permeates:” to touch all over.

    “His whole body:” in this monk’s body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

Zakattack wrote:To add, although the entire anatomical body may be pervaded by rapture & pleasure, this does not necessarily mean the practitioner is consciously aware of it, in the preliminary jhanas.

Rapture and pleasure can only arise concurrently with conscious awareness.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Thu May 09, 2013 1:51 am

Ñāṇa wrote:The Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā....

How is he acquainted with these bodies? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is established (founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies. When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long outbreaths, ... through short in-breaths, ... through short out-breaths, his mindfulness is established (founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies.

Thank you. This is a handy quote, as it shows a history of commentarial thought. But it only describes concentration , it does not include vipassana, i.e., kaya sankhara. Using logic, the structure of the first two tetrads, where the word 'sankhara' is used, can be examined. As feeling & perception condition the defilement & thoughts of the citta (mind), they are citta sankhara (mind conditioners). Step 7 is experiencing mind conditioners, which is experiencing how piti & sukkha influence the mind. Step 8 is calming mind conditioners. Step 3 can be viewed in the same. Although the term kaya-sankhara is only found in Step 4, Step 3 has the same natural place as Step 7. The phrase: "experiencing kaya sankhara" can be readily substituted for: "experiencing all kaya". Steps 3 & 7 can be viewed as vipassana because they are insight into the functioning of sankhara (conditioning). Steps 4 & 8 can be viewed as samatha. The constant posting here of exclusively concentration based interpret shows a rigidity in samadhi that is not giving rise to vipassana. The scripture describe good samadhi as being pliant & pure and not only stable .

The commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta explains this passage as follows:

“This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. “He drenches:” he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. “Steeps:” to flow all over. “Fills:” like filling a bellows with air. “Permeates:” to touch all over.

“His whole body:” in this monk’s body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

The constant use of [brackets] above does not create confidence. In the here-&-now, skilful kamma will create a different physical body than unskilful kamma, let alone create different nama kaya (mental body). For example, constant anger, worry, etc, causes sickness of the physical body. As for this fixation with “He drenches", this seems very ego & will based. Meditation & jhana are not like this. It is through abandoning jhana develops, just as it is through abandoning the physical body becomes drenched with rapture. What is the point of these constant posts fixated on the physical body in the manner a sensualist is fixated upon sensual pleasure? Progress comes with abandonment. Rapture simply serves as another object to abandon attachment towards. Keep in mind, this thread is about vipassana.

Ñāṇa wrote:
Zakattack wrote:To add, although the entire anatomical body may be pervaded by rapture & pleasure, this does not necessarily mean the practitioner is consciously aware of it, in the preliminary jhanas.

Rapture and pleasure can only arise concurrently with conscious awareness.

What was stated was although the entire anatomical body may be pervaded by rapture & pleasure, this does not necessarily mean the practitioner is consciously aware of it within the anatomical body. The term "one-pointedness" (ekkagatta) does not necessarily only refer to non-distraction. It also can refer to converging consciousness, which is why the history of literature refers to the converging of consciousness at the nose-tip, nimittas, etc. When the 1st jhana is consummated, the entire anatomical body is certainly pervaded with rapture & pleasure but conscious awareness may only established within the brain (since the anatomical body is too refined & the rapture in the brain too dominant). It should not be thought of for a moment that teachers like Ajahn Brahmvamso have not experienced the development of rapture within the anatomical body. Instead, they are describing a state further advanced than that. Similarly, the vipassana Step 3 teachers are describing a state beyond mere seeing of breathing. They are describing an acutely clear & profound experience of the simultaneous experience of mind, breath & body influencing eachother, i.e., both sankhara (conditioning) & nirodha (liberating). This is best viewed as ehipassiko (inviting to see) rather than dismissed.

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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 09, 2013 3:01 am

Zakattack wrote:Thank you. This is a handy quote, as it shows a history of commentarial thought. But it only describes concentration , it does not include vipassana, i.e., kaya sankhara.

The same section goes on to include both samatha & vipassanā:

    He combines samatha through its meaning of non-distraction. He combines vipassanā through its meaning of contemplation. He combines samatha and vipassanā through their meaning of single function (taste). He combines coupling (yuganandha) through its meaning of non-excess.

This same passage occurs in all of the first 12 steps of mindfulness of breathing. The format changes for the last four steps because the explanation is different for each step.

Zakattack wrote:The constant posting here of exclusively concentration based interpret shows a rigidity in samadhi that is not giving rise to vipassana.

I don't know who is constantly posting exclusively concentration based interpretations, but I would suggest that approaches which couple samatha & vipassanā together are quite useful.

Zakattack wrote:The constant use of [brackets] above does not create confidence.

The two bracketed portions are included to give the context of the technical commentarial terminology being used. But at any rate, it seems to me that the passage reads the same even without the bracketed bits.

Zakattack wrote:As for this fixation with “He drenches", this seems very ego & will based.

I don't see any fixation. Once the hindrances have been abandoned, the development of samādhi is quite a passive process.

Zakattack wrote:What was stated was although the entire anatomical body may be pervaded by rapture & pleasure, this does not necessarily mean the practitioner is consciously aware of it within the anatomical body.

The Vimuttimagga deals with this question as follows:

    Just as the bath-powder when inside and outside saturated with moisture, adheres and does not scatter, so the body of the meditator in the first jhāna is permeated with joy and pleasure from top to bottom, from the skullcap to the feet and from the feet to the skullcap, skin and hair, inside and outside. And he dwells without falling back. Thus he dwells like a Brahma god.

    [Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

    [A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

    Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquillized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form. Therefore there is no contradiction.

Zakattack wrote:When the 1st jhana is consummated, the entire anatomical body is certainly pervaded with rapture & pleasure but conscious awareness may only established within the brain (since the anatomical body is too refined & the rapture in the brain too dominant).

The sub-commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta passage in question further explains that mind-produced form suffuses the entire area of the physical body:

    Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa).
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 09, 2013 8:39 am

reflection wrote:Sati and samatha are not so different.


As I see it sati is a method for developing samatha.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 am

daverupa wrote:Both vipassana and samatha have a share in clear knowing; one oughtn't to develop them as though they were mutually exclusive. Samatha addresses passion, vipassana addresses delusion, both are required, and both are developed via satipatthana.


Yes, I think I agree. :smile:
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Thu May 09, 2013 9:58 am

Ñāṇa wrote:He combines vipassanā through its meaning of contemplation.

To see (contemplate) the object is not necessarily vipassanā. For best vipassanā, conditionality, impermanence, not-self, etc, of the object/s are seen.

Once the hindrances have been abandoned, the development of samādhi is quite a passive process.

That's cleared up, then. Language can be deceiving, expressing more 'active intentional doing' than is really occurring or required.

Ñāṇa wrote:[Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

Uncertain view here, appearing to assert mind separate from body. When a bone breaks, it hurts a lot. When sugar is tasted, it is pleasant. How is this relationship between neurology & vedana (feeling) explained (despite being irrelevant to Dhamma, which is about non-attachment to the five aggregates)?

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Pain has been characterized in a variety of ways. There are physical definitions such as an unpleasant sensation; a warning that something is wrong; or the body's response to a thermal, chemical, or mechanical injury.

When the tissue damage threshold is reached, nerve fibers in the area carry a message to the spinal column. There are three types of nerve fibers, each of which has a distinctive role in producing pain sensations. Small, myelinated fibers known as A delta carry localized and sharp thermal and mechanical impulses to the neospinothalamic tract. The small, unmyelinated C fibers carry aching, throbbing, burning, dull, unlocalized messages to the paleospinothalamic tract and on to the brain stem. The brain is sending down control messages to amplify, diminish, or ignore the signal".
An example of this occurs when hitting one's shin on a sharp object. The immediate response is to reach down and rub the area. The rubbing message is carried by the A beta fibers closing the gate to messages from the A delta and C fibers.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 856AA7uErb


Ñāṇa wrote:Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquillized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form. Therefore there is no contradiction.

This is better although the word "depends" is ambiguous. Yes, singular nama-&-rupa, i.e., mentality-&-materiality! (rather than 'name-&-form'. A 'name' or 'label' cannot have joy. But vedana khandha can have joy). This is the vipassana I was describing as Step 3, which is seeing the quality of mind influences the quality of breathing, the quality of breathing influences the quality of body, the quality of body influences the quality of mind, etc. This is experiencing sabbakaya, i.e., all kaya.

Ñāṇa wrote:The sub-commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta passage in question further explains that mind-produced form suffuses the entire area of the physical body: [list]Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa).

The word "produced" is ambiguous here. A more appropriate word is "conditioned", as in "shampoo conditioned hair". Shampoo does not 'produce' hair. Shampoo 'conditions' hair. In the same way joy causes tranquility of body, shampoo causes tranquillity (softness) of hair.

The language of this sub-commentary or its translation can be deceiving. When Buddha spoke like this, he spoke in paradox, namely: "Kamma that ends kamma". It can certainly be said the act of meditation is an act of kamma because the mind intends when letting go. Samma Samkhappa (Right Intention), being intention (cetana), certainly can be included in mental kamma. But in reality, the mind does not directly produce the bliss of jhana although the bliss of jhana is certainly a mental product or thing (nama dhamma). The bliss of jhana is created (by the mind) when the body & mind are free from the disturbing sankhara created by the five hindrances. The bliss of jhana is a 'neurological release', similar to when an opiate relieves pain. Thus the bliss of jhana, although mental phenomena, is essentially 'nirodha produced' rather than 'mind produced'. The bliss of jhana is a mental reaction to the nirodha (cessation/dissolving) of the disturbance & pain of the five hindrances. It is not the mind that dissolves the five hindrances. Instead, it is the nirodha dhatu that dissolves the five hindrances (when the mind does not generate their causes). Therefore, the words: "Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa)" is deceiving. Thus, Buddha taught:

And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation (nirodha), resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

MN 118


And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation (nirodha) of fabrications (sankhara). When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

SN 36.11


:alien:
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby reflection » Thu May 09, 2013 2:39 pm

porpoise wrote:
reflection wrote:Sati and samatha are not so different.


As I see it sati is a method for developing samatha.

Yes, but calm also brings forth stronger mindfulness. So in that way they are two sides of the same coin.

Calm, mindfulness, insight, samadhi, etc. all these things are more descriptive than prescriptive to me. If we are cooking dhamma, they are not like ingredients but more like tastes.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Fri May 10, 2013 12:01 am

Zakattack wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:He combines vipassanā through its meaning of contemplation.

To see (contemplate) the object is not necessarily vipassanā. For best vipassanā, conditionality, impermanence, not-self, etc, of the object/s are seen.

You sure seem to have a lot of qualms....

Anyway, contemplation (anupassanā) is closely related to vipassanā. The correct engagement of the former leads to the latter.

Zakattack wrote:How is this relationship between neurology & vedana (feeling) explained (despite being irrelevant to Dhamma, which is about non-attachment to the five aggregates)?

I'd suggest that neurological processes are rūpa, and vedanā is nāma. The relationship was addressed in the answer given to the question from the Vimuttimagga passage already quoted.

Zakattack wrote:Yes, singular nama-&-rupa, i.e., mentality-&-materiality! (rather than 'name-&-form'. A 'name' or 'label' cannot have joy. But vedana khandha can have joy).

Ven. Ñāṇananda addresses this issue in The Mind Stilled:

    But now let us see whether there is something wrong in rendering nāma by 'name' in the case of the term nāma-rūpa. To begin with, let us turn to the definition of nāma-rūpa as given by the Venerable Sāriputta in the Sammādiṭṭhisutta of the Majjhima Nikāya.

    Vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro -- idaṃ vuccatāvuso, nāmaṃ; cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāyarūpaṃ -- idaṃ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṃ. Iti idañca nāmaṃ idañca rūpaṃ -- idam vuccatāvuso nāma-rūpaṃ. "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention -- this, friend, is called 'name'. The four great primaries and form dependent on the four great primaries -- this, friend, is called 'form'. So this is 'name' and this is 'form' -- this, friend, is called 'name-and-form'."

    Well, this seems lucid enough as a definition but let us see, whether there is any justification for regarding feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention as 'name'. Suppose there is a little child, a toddler, who is still unable to speak or understand language. Someone gives him a rubber ball and the child has seen it for the first time. If the child is told that it is a rubber ball, he might not understand it. How does he get to know that object? He smells it, feels it, and tries to eat it, and finally rolls it on the floor. At last he understands that it is a plaything. Now the child has recognised the rubber ball not by the name that the world has given it, but by those factors included under 'name' in nāma-rūpa, namely feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention.

    This shows that the definition of nāma in nāma-rūpa takes us back to the most fundamental notion of 'name', to something like its prototype. The world gives a name to an object for purposes of easy communication. When it gets the sanction of others, it becomes a convention....

    Even though he is able to recognize objects by their conventional names, for the purpose of comprehending name-and-form, a meditator makes use of those factors that are included under 'name': feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention. All these have a specific value to each individual and that is why the Dhamma has to be understood each one by himself -- paccattaṃ veditabbo. This Dhamma has to be realized by oneself. One has to understand one's own world of name-and-form by oneself. No one else can do it for him. Nor can it be defined or denoted by technical terms.

Zakattack wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The sub-commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta passage in question further explains that mind-produced form suffuses the entire area of the physical body: [list]Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa).

The word "produced" is ambiguous here.

See here.

Zakattack wrote:It is not the mind that dissolves the five hindrances. Instead, it is the nirodha dhatu that dissolves the five hindrances (when the mind does not generate their causes).

And how do you suppose the nirodhadhātu does that?
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri May 10, 2013 8:16 am

reflection wrote:Calm, mindfulness, insight, samadhi, etc. all these things are more descriptive than prescriptive to me. If we are cooking dhamma, they are not like ingredients but more like tastes.


I don't disagree, but I've found it useful to develop greater clarity as to what these qualities are, the relationships between them, and most importantly what they are for. It's good to be creative in our cooking, but also useful to understand why a recipe has a particular set of instructions and ingredients and how this affects the taste which results.
Well, oi dunno...
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