It's not clear how one could persist with a teaching that one fundamentally disagrees with.dharmagoat wrote:Still, there is no benefit in persisting with a teaching that you fundamentally disagree with.
the great rebirth debate
Re: the great rebirth debate
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
- Location: Gone Bush
Re: the great rebirth debate
I admit that I wasn't very clear in my wording.binocular wrote:It's not clear how one could persist with a teaching that one fundamentally disagrees with.dharmagoat wrote:Still, there is no benefit in persisting with a teaching that you fundamentally disagree with.
What I meant to say is that, in my experience, no matter how much one tries, one can't force oneself to accept a teaching, or an aspect of a teaching, that goes against the grain of their current understanding, even if they recognise the benefits of doing so.
-
- Posts: 10154
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: the great rebirth debate
Not really. In DO birth, aging and death are described in physical terms, and clearly involve a progression through time ( see the nidana definitions in MN9, SN12.2 etc ).Alex123 wrote:Only few factors could be separated by LONG time, ex: avijjā and resultant dukkha, birth and death.
But we could say that "birth" of new implies the death of old, so even here there is a way how these are nearly simultaneous.
In DO this /that conditionality ( idappaccayata ) is summarised by the following verse:
1. When this is, that is;
2. With the arising of this, that arises;
3. When this isn't, that isn't;
4. With the ceasing of this, that ceases.
Clearly 1 and 3 describe simultaneous causality , while 2 and 4 describe causality over time. I've seen these described as synchronic and diachronic causality respectively.
IMO understanding DO involves consideration of both these modes of conditionality.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
-
- Posts: 10154
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: the great rebirth debate
Sure, but likewise there is no benefit in continually arguing against it.dharmagoat wrote:Still, there is no benefit in persisting with a teaching that you fundamentally disagree with.porpoise wrote:I agree. Merely disliking a teaching or idea isn't usually a sound basis for putting it aside.binocular wrote: But one ought to put them aside for the right reason, for a wholesome reason.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: the great rebirth debate
You are right that some factors in DO progress over time. But not all. Of course DO can and should be interpreted in multiple ways. The most important is the main principle: Avijjā -> dukkha.porpoise wrote:Not really. In DO birth, aging and death are described in physical terms, and clearly involve a progression through time ( see the nidana definitions in MN9, SN12.2 etc ).
Re: the great rebirth debate
Sure. But what seems to be the problem here?dharmagoat wrote:What I meant to say is that, in my experience, no matter how much one tries, one can't force oneself to accept a teaching, or an aspect of a teaching, that goes against the grain of their current understanding, even if they recognise the benefits of doing so.
That something seems to be too good to be true?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
- Location: Gone Bush
Re: the great rebirth debate
Someone with an empirical understanding of phenomena will have difficulty accepting a view that is based on inference and not supported by evidence. Likewise, someone with a religious understanding will have difficulty accepting a view that is in conflict with their chosen beliefs.binocular wrote:Sure. But what seems to be the problem here?dharmagoat wrote:What I meant to say is that, in my experience, no matter how much one tries, one can't force oneself to accept a teaching, or an aspect of a teaching, that goes against the grain of their current understanding, even if they recognise the benefits of doing so.
That something seems to be too good to be true?
-
- Posts: 10154
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: the great rebirth debate
Yes, although an important aspect of "dissolving" avijja is contemplation of anicca.Alex123 wrote: You are right that some factors in DO progress over time. But not all. Of course DO can and should be interpreted in multiple ways. The most important is the main principle: Avijjā -> dukkha.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
-
- Posts: 10154
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: the great rebirth debate
I'd associate timelessness with the un-conditioned and therefore with the cessation of DO, not with DO itself.daverupa wrote: The Pali term "akāliko" seems to support the non-temporal discussion.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: the great rebirth debate
It's still not clear what the problem is here that you are pointing at.dharmagoat wrote:Someone with an empirical understanding of phenomena will have difficulty accepting a view that is based on inference and not supported by evidence. Likewise, someone with a religious understanding will have difficulty accepting a view that is in conflict with their chosen beliefs.
??
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: the great rebirth debate
Religious people believe what their religion says.binocular wrote:It's still not clear what the problem is here that you are pointing at.dharmagoat wrote:Someone with an empirical understanding of phenomena will have difficulty accepting a view that is based on inference and not supported by evidence. Likewise, someone with a religious understanding will have difficulty accepting a view that is in conflict with their chosen beliefs.
??
People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
IMHO.
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
- Location: Gone Bush
Re: the great rebirth debate
Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
It's a problem.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...dharmagoat wrote:Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
It's a problem.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
- Location: Gone Bush
Re: the great rebirth debate
Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...