Violent sports

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
EmptyShadow
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Re: Violent sports

Post by EmptyShadow »

Here is an excerpt from the Bhikkhu Revata's book "The Disciple Within".
(the highlight is from me)
However, the debts paid for akusala (unwholesome) deeds are immense! They can be extremely
severe, punishing, drastic, intolerable and deadly. If we study the earlier lives of the Bodhisattva we
will see that, due to his immaturity during those existences, He harboured the defilements of greed,
hatred, delusion, stinginess, jealousy and conceit which put Him into debt. It was even up until when
He had already attained Enlightenment and, even up to The Buddha's final parinibbàna that debts
had to be paid in full! There was simply no way of getting out of it. The Buddha's afflictions of
backache, of headache, of diarrhea were such repayments.

In one of his past lives, the Bodhisattva was a well-known wrestler. Although he had already retired
due to age, his arrogance and conceit in thinking he was the only one still capable of retaining the
country's honour, he went into the ring and broke his opponent's back. Thus, even in His last existence
as the Enlightened One He suffered severe backache as a means of repaying His akusala kammic
debt.

In yet another one of the past lives, our Bodhisattva was a resident of a fishing village. During one
session he happened to take great delight in watching his relatives and fellow villagers beating in the
head to kill the fish that had been caught and hauled ashore. That debt of evil delight borne of lobha
was repaid by having to suffer headaches during the life as The Buddha. The Bodhisattva had merely
been enjoying the sight of the fish being killed. He had not taken part in the slaughtering itself. This
goes to show that even silent approval of akusala deeds will surely put you into kammic debt. Just
imagine the intensity of akusala being developed by the spectators at a boxing match or a bullfight!
They shout, they applaud, and they cheer the contestants to fight, to hurt, to beat and, sometimes even
to kill each other. They want one side to win; they wish the other side to lose.
How appalling! How
horribly frightening! They are accumulating akusala and kammic debts. Do you wish to be a participant
in such activities? As long as you have those defilements, which are the disciple within, you will
be encountering evil all the way. You will not be able to escape it. So, beware.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

EmptyShadow wrote:Here is an excerpt from the Bhikkhu Revata's book "The Disciple Within".
(the highlight is from me)
Thanks for answering Alex's question. That is the best that anyone can do, that is, give specific examples from the Commentaries that are similar to the case being discussed. To know the specific result of the kamma of watching a boxing match is impossible, even for the one who enjoys it and knows his or her own thoughts and mental states at the time.

They may overlook many unwholesome thought-processes, and may not know what is wholesome or what is unwholesome. In general, deluded people think that what is enjoyable must be good. The defects of anger are plain enough, but the more subtle defilements like pride or heedlessness/intoxication, (pamāda) are harder to know as unwholesome states.

The Buddha later remarked, that when, as the bodhisatta, he saw an old man for the first time, "All intoxication of youth vanished from me." Young people in particular may be intoxicated with their strength and vigour, older folks are more likely intoxicated with their sense of superior knowledge. Men, when watching a boxing or wrestling match may be intoxicated by their masculinity, thinking that they are like the strong man in the ring, imagining that they might do the same to their enemies. A woman watching the same match might have different thoughts, perhaps fantasising how she could control such a strong man with her femininity.

I am not generalising that is how spectators think — I just gave a couple of examples of how akusala kamma might arise while watching violent sports like boxing or wrestling.

To get back to the original question of participating in such sports, if one's intention is to get healthy exercise, I think there are many much better ways such as digging an allotment to grow some organic food, or doing some manual labour to help an elderly person. There must be millions of better ways to get fit.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Kim OHara »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:To get back to the original question of participating in such sports, if one's intention is to get healthy exercise, I think there are many much better ways such as digging an allotment to grow some organic food, or doing some manual labour to help an elderly person. There must be millions of better ways to get fit.
Absolutely!
Including - if sport helps to get you moving - participating in competitive but non-violent sports such as tennis and squash. They may not do any good for the rest of the world like Bhikkhu Pesala's suggestions, but they don't harm anyone either. And they are also good for the development of mindfulness: being attentive to keeping on playing the sport rather than beating the opponent is good for your own and the opponent's enjoyment and (in my experience) for skill development. Not saying that you've got to want to lose, of course, but that playing well has to be more important than winning.

:namaste:
Kim
santa100
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Re: Violent sports

Post by santa100 »

Combat sports are designed to "simulate" violent situations for one to train so that one's well prepared to make the best choice when "real" situations come up. As the saying goes "more sweat on the training field, less blood on the battlefield", if one trains correctly and properly, s/he'll be able to do a lot of good for the world. A typical example, with all those ongoing horrible gang rape and abuse incidents in India, it might be a good idea that the government starts training women some self defense to protect themselves..
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Alex123
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Alex123 »

santa100 wrote:Combat sports are designed to "simulate" violent situations for one to train so that one's well prepared to make the best choice when "real" situations come up. As the saying goes "more sweat on the training field, less blood on the battlefield", if one trains correctly and properly, s/he'll be able to do a lot of good for the world. A typical example, with all those ongoing horrible gang rape and abuse incidents in India, it might be a good idea that the government starts training women some self defense to protect themselves..
That interesting perspective. Another thing: Is it possible to use combat styles to protect sangha, and aryans from harm that some deranged person can inflict on them?
santa100
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Re: Violent sports

Post by santa100 »

Alex123 wrote:
That interesting perspective. Another thing: Is it possible to use combat styles to protect sangha, and aryans from harm that some deranged person can inflict on them?
Shaolin monks?... :smile:
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Rather than training women or monks to defend themselves, it would be better to train would-be attackers to control their lust and anger. India needs to address the underlying unskilful social attitudes towards women, and not just patch a festering wound with a band-aid.
Whatever (harm) a foe may do to a foe, or a hater to a hater,
an ill-directed mind can do one far greater (harm).Dhp.42
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Alex123
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Alex123 »

Dear Bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Rather than training women or monks to defend themselves, it would be better to train would-be attackers to control their lust and anger. India needs to address the underlying unskilful social attitudes towards women, and not just patch a festering wound with a band-aid.
While this is correct, it is very idealistic. We cannot expect that everyone will be good and wise. It is just not realistic for today.

It is better to aim for lesser, but achievable goal, then to aim for the best one that cannot be achieved at all.
  • "Perfect is the enemy of good."
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marc108
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Re: Violent sports

Post by marc108 »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:One should be especially mindful during these activities so as to make sure that unwholesome aggression does not arise - however, if one accepts the risks and acts to mitigate them, sports like boxing or the martial arts can be fun and productive forms of entertainment and exercise.

:goodpost:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
zamotcr
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Re: Violent sports

Post by zamotcr »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There are some grey areas here. Sports that inflict pain and injury on others is not wholesome exercise, even if human beings are able to consent to being hit or injured by participating in such sports
Kamma is volitional. It depends upon intention. So, why, if two human beings consent, is bad thing?
I cannot find a reference that practicing martial arts (a kind of training) is a bad thing. Of course, you may talk at Bhikkhu POV, but at a lay point of view, I cannot find something bad about it. It does not break any of the precepts.
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kmath
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Re: Violent sports

Post by kmath »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Spectators who consent to or approve of cruel and harsh treatment of animals, suffer in hell or are reborn as hungry ghosts. Many such cases are mentioned in the Pali texts.
But it's ok to buy meat at the grocery store?
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kmath
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Re: Violent sports

Post by kmath »

pilgrim wrote:What do you think of Buddhists taking up sports like
1. Martial arts
2. Boxing/wrestling
3. Paintball/Airsoft
I couldn't live without aggressive sports. I find them cathartic. If some aggression arises here or there, I still think their overall effect for me is positive.
mahat
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Re: Violent sports

Post by mahat »

Indeed, sometimes aggression helps to pulverize evil samkharas. This is the "Right Effort" aspect in the Noble Eightfold Path. Buddhists must maintain "viriya" or energy to destroy any evil arising in themselves at ALL TIMES.

You can utilize the energy arisen from martial arts and other violent sports to decimate impurities also to realize the impermanence of all samskaras and bring about fearlessness. One can never fear violence.
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Mkoll
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Re: Violent sports

Post by Mkoll »

"Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.
-AN 8.6
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
zamotcr
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Re: Violent sports

Post by zamotcr »

Mkoll wrote:
"Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.
-AN 8.6
Of course that's the goal but we aren't monks neither. If we apply this reasoning to every aspect of our lives then we have to be almost monks. We should abstain from everything, not just sports. Of course if you don't like them, don't practice it.

But saying that a thing by itself is unwholesome it's weird, unwholesome are a mental condition.
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