the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Well, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I take an approach, outlined in some respects earlier in this thread, which avoids the quandary you've outlined, but it differs in some fundamental ways from your own approach, so it may be of limited usefulness.

Thanks for the clarification.

:hug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

dharmagoat wrote:Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.
5heaps
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:19 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by 5heaps »

dharmagoat wrote:
daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...
Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

5heaps wrote: no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
What do you mean by "proper material"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

dharmagoat wrote:
binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.
No.

They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.


Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
dharmagoat
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
Location: Gone Bush

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

5heaps wrote:no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
My reading on these subjects has been very scant.

What books do you recommend?
dharmagoat
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:41 am
Location: Gone Bush

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

binocular wrote:They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.
Yes, I now admit this quite regularly and it definitely circumvents both confusion and doubt.
binocular wrote:Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
I will, many thanks for the link.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?
If you mean nibbāna-without-remainder, no. However absence of consciousness after death is less problematic than its eternal presence.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.
Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable. But until it is known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with discernment, faith is considered to be indispensable according to the Buddha's dhamma. SN 48.44 Pubbakoṭṭhaka Sutta:
  • Good, good Sāriputta! Those who have not known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with discernment, they would have to go by faith in others that the faculty of faith ... the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness ... the faculty of meditative composure ... the faculty of discernment, when developed and cultivated, has the death-free as its ground, the death-free as its destination, the death-free as its final goal.
Faith is both a faculty and a strength included in the requisites of awakening (bodhipakkhiyā dhammā). Ven. Ñāṇatiloka:
  • Faith is called the seed (Sn. v. 77) of all wholesome states because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind with confidence (okappana, pasāda) and determination (adhimokkha), for 'launching out' (pakkhandhana; s. M. 122) to cross the flood of saṃsāra.

    Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of holiness, 'stream-entry' (sotāpatti, s. ariyapuggala), when the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikicchā; s. samyojana) is eliminated. Unshakable confidence (avecca-pasāda) in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner (sotāpannassa angāni, q.v.).
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable.
And how exactly is it known? How can one know that one is not merely hallucinating, dreaming, or imagining something?

I don't have much faith in knowledge obtained through super powers. See this example that I've posted.
Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of holiness, 'stream-entry' (sotāpatti, s. ariyapuggala), when the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikicchā; s. samyojana) is eliminated. Unshakable confidence (avecca-pasāda) in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner (sotāpannassa angāni
I wonder, faith precisely in what? I understand about faith in 4NT, anicca-asubha-dukkha-anatta, for example. These are very good teachings.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
"Faith" means a lot more. A spectrum of the meaning of this word concerns things like 'loyalty, reliance on, consistency.'
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

binocular wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
"Faith" means a lot more. A spectrum of the meaning of this word concerns things like 'loyalty, reliance on, consistency.'
Loyalty to idea or relying on idea that one has no evidence for. Sure.

How does consistency fits into definition of "faith"?
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable.
And how exactly is it known? How can one know that one is not merely hallucinating, dreaming, or imagining something?
In this case, by correctly following the noble eightfold path to it's conclusion. That is, through engaging in the complete and unerring causes and conditions of awakening. If one engages in erroneous causes and conditions the fruition will not be realized.
Alex123 wrote:I don't have much faith in knowledge obtained through super powers.
Okay.
Alex123 wrote:See this example that I've posted.
Yes, I already saw it. I thought binocular's replies to your concerns were appropriate. I also thought that you considered his suggestion helpful here.
Alex123 wrote:I wonder, faith precisely in what?
Faith involves accepting the awakening of the Buddha. SN 55.37:
  • "In what way, venerable sir, is a lay follower accomplished in faith?"

    "Here, Mahānāma, a lay follower is a person of faith. He places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathāgata thus: 'The Blessed One is ... teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' In that way a lay follower is accomplished in faith."
And faith in the Tathāgata's awakening is connected to hearing the dhamma. MN 112:
  • Friends, formerly when I lived the home life I was ignorant. Then the Tathāgata or his disciple taught me the Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma I acquired faith in the Tathāgata.
Alex123 wrote:I understand about faith in 4NT, anicca-asubha-dukkha-anatta, for example.
That's good. Do you understand that kamma and rebirth are implicit in the second noble truth?
Post Reply