This thread on the mechanics of gandhabba is somewhat related.
Rebirth mechanics
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: Rebirth mechanics
As far as I can see, and it appears to accord with the teachings entirely, ignorance is the prime mover, the premier cause of the rebirth. Ignorance is, in this sense, the same as consciousness itself, which is a lonely little thing when it is all by itself with nothing to be conscious 'of'. So, it continues to seek contact, of one sort or another, not realizing that this contact leads to becoming mired in a whole heap of compounded conditions, such as gathering together a cloud of mind qualities and conditions and possibly also acquiring a body of one kind or another and senses and thereby 'getting a life'. When it is over, if the condition persists, namely complete ignorance of what is going on, the consciousness condition arises again and this simply repeats itself, again and again. So the mechanics are that consciousness is ignorant that being and becoming are nothing but a pain in the...consciousness. And that it's own re-arising, the condition of consciousness, is just another ignorantly habbitual re-occurrence of the same old problem again as well. The cure, is education.
Stay in school kids.
Stay in school kids.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Rebirth mechanics
I Agree. As I know the Buddha never taught the mechanics of rebirth. He said as long as there are ignorance and craving there is rebirth. There are some suttas about Kamma and how the beings will reappear depending to their thoughts and doings. And knowing the legality of Kamma is imho the knowing of the mechanisms of rebirth. But the Buddha warned us against speculation about Kamma in the Acintita Sutta:Peter wrote:I don't recall the Buddha saying anything about the mechanics of it other than saying that craving makes it happen. Without craving, it doesn't happen.
AN 4.77"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
[...]
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
[...]
In the same direction leads Samyutta Nikaya 56.31:
S 56.31Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."
"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.
"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
So the Buddha thought that it is not useful for salvation to know the exact mechanism of kamma and rebirth. We have to trust the Buddha that there is rebirth as long as there is ignorance and craving. There is no necessity to know the mechanics of it. I think it could lead us in the wrong direction. I'm sure that not even every Arahant knows of past existences (but maybe some). The Arahant knows 'birth is ended'.
With best wishes
Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
Re: Rebirth mechanics
There is plenty of detail in the Abhidhamma.Rhino wrote: I Agree. As I know the Buddha never taught the mechanics of rebirth. He said as long as there are ignorance and craving there is rebirth. ...
See, for example "A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma" Translation and commentary edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi).
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... lQTussnmCQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta
Mike
Re: Rebirth mechanics
AN 4.77[/quote]\Rhino wrote: [...]
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
[...]
A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Rebirth mechanics
I know that many Theravadins belief that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha. I do not.mikenz66 wrote:There is plenty of detail in the Abhidhamma.Rhino wrote: I Agree. As I know the Buddha never taught the mechanics of rebirth. He said as long as there are ignorance and craving there is rebirth. ...
Please don't take it as offense. It's just my personal opinion.
Isn't there a depending relationship between seeing the 'causes of' and 'results of' kamma? Can someone see the causes of rebirth without seeing the results of it? Can someone see the results of rebirth without seeing the causes of it?nathan wrote:AN 4.77Rhino wrote: [...]
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
[...]
A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.
With best wishes
Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Well if the Buddha didn't provide the Abhidhamma, I'd like to thank whoever did. Thanks, to whoever. I don't, btw, have any use for 'beliefs' whatsoever but the Abhidhamma has endless utility for my purposes.Rhino wrote:I know that many Theravadins belief that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha. I do not.mikenz66 wrote:There is plenty of detail in the Abhidhamma.Rhino wrote: I Agree. As I know the Buddha never taught the mechanics of rebirth. He said as long as there are ignorance and craving there is rebirth. ...
Please don't take it as offense. It's just my personal opinion.
Isn't there a depending relationship between seeing the 'causes of' and 'results of' kamma? Can someone see the causes of rebirth without seeing the results of it? Can someone see the results of rebirth without seeing the causes of it?nathan wrote:AN 4.77Rhino wrote: [...]
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
[...]
A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.
Ok, causality.
We are, each of us, results, whether we see that or not. So, there you go. We are also causes whether we see that or not, so there you go again. How much anyone actually sees, is a question of actually looking into it instead of just believing stuff, thinking about stuff, arguing stuff or what have you.
upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Rebirth mechanics
A smaller point of order. The question is to the causes of rebirth. Rebirth is taught to be the result of karma.nathan wrote:A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.Rhino wrote:"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Kamma is of two kinds, causal and resultant.Peter wrote:A smaller point of order. The question is to the causes of rebirth. Rebirth is taught to be the result of karma.nathan wrote:A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.Rhino wrote:"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Stefan,
According to the teachings on dependent origination — a process of conditionality that's understood to occur moment to moment and over multiple lifetimes (non-literalists simply disregard the "three-life" model, e.g., see Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination) — if there are sufficient conditions present, those conditions with inevitably result in future births (SN 12.35). Along with consciousness, craving (tahna) plays a vital role in the renewal of beings and the production of future births.
To illustrate how craving could result in future births, the Buddha used a simile in which he compared the sustenance of a flame to that of a being at the time of death. Essentially, a flame burns in dependence on its fuel, and that fuel sustains it. When a flame burns in dependence on wood, for example, the wood sustains that flame. However, when a flame is swept up and carried away by the wind, the fuel of wind sustains that flame until it lands upon a new source of fuel. In the same way, a being at the time of death has the fuel of craving as its sustenance (SN 44.9).
The last consciousness of a being at the time of death, with the presence of craving, is the cause for the arising of a new consciousness. In the human realm, this would be in combination with the union of a healthy sperm and egg (MN 38), although the Buddha often mentioned various other forms of birth in other realms of existence. Hence, the Buddha states: "Wherever there is a basis for consciousness, there is support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of renewed existence" (SN 12.38). The Buddha never really got more specific than that, though.
Jason
In Theravada (as far as I understand it at least), the literal interpretation of rebirth is viewed as an instantaneous process whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness (kind of like "spooky action at a distance" where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances).Stefan wrote:How does consciousness pass from one body to the next at the moment of rebirth? Is it similar to how radio waves travel through air from one emitter to the receiver?
According to the teachings on dependent origination — a process of conditionality that's understood to occur moment to moment and over multiple lifetimes (non-literalists simply disregard the "three-life" model, e.g., see Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination) — if there are sufficient conditions present, those conditions with inevitably result in future births (SN 12.35). Along with consciousness, craving (tahna) plays a vital role in the renewal of beings and the production of future births.
To illustrate how craving could result in future births, the Buddha used a simile in which he compared the sustenance of a flame to that of a being at the time of death. Essentially, a flame burns in dependence on its fuel, and that fuel sustains it. When a flame burns in dependence on wood, for example, the wood sustains that flame. However, when a flame is swept up and carried away by the wind, the fuel of wind sustains that flame until it lands upon a new source of fuel. In the same way, a being at the time of death has the fuel of craving as its sustenance (SN 44.9).
The last consciousness of a being at the time of death, with the presence of craving, is the cause for the arising of a new consciousness. In the human realm, this would be in combination with the union of a healthy sperm and egg (MN 38), although the Buddha often mentioned various other forms of birth in other realms of existence. Hence, the Buddha states: "Wherever there is a basis for consciousness, there is support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of renewed existence" (SN 12.38). The Buddha never really got more specific than that, though.
Yes.Also, if I die in Europe, is it possible to be reborn in, say, Japan?
Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Hi Jason
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?
Thanks
Ben
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?
Thanks
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Ben wrote:Hi Jason
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?
Thanks
Ben
- Then the first yakkha, ignoring the second yakkha, gave Ven. Sariputta a blow on the head. And with that blow he might have knocked over an elephant seven or eight cubits tall, or split a rocky crag. But right there the yakkha — yelling, "I'm burning!" — fell into the Great Hell.
As far as I know, in the Suttas all the rebirth stories are like this. I have never read any Sutta where beings die and then turn into mysterious and inscrutable spooks who have to hang around in a Bardo waiting room, or go searching for a couple making love, before they can be reborn.
Kind regards,
Ciarán
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Ben,Ben wrote:Hi Jason
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?
Thanks
Ben
As far as I know, there's nothing in the Nikayas that explicitly mentions this, but it's the official Theravada position as the idea of an intermediate state was rejected at the Council of Patali. I'm sure it's in the Kathavatthu, and possibly in the commentaries somewhere, but beyond that I can't give you an exact reference.
Jason
Last edited by Jason on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
Re: Rebirth mechanics
Ben,Ben wrote:Hi Jason
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?
Thanks
Ben
I'm sure you are fully aware of the evidence that rebirth is instantaneous.
I'm sure you are also aware of the evidence that rebirth is not instantaneous.
I don't see any benefit in re-introducing that debate here.
As Jason said, instantaneous rebirth is the traditionally taught Theravada position, something I'm sure you are also already aware of.
If for some strange reason you are in fact unfamiliar with this debate, I'm sure there are other threads covering it in detail.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.