Well, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I take an approach, outlined in some respects earlier in this thread, which avoids the quandary you've outlined, but it differs in some fundamental ways from your own approach, so it may be of limited usefulness.
Thanks for the clarification.
the great rebirth debate
Re: the great rebirth debate
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: the great rebirth debate
Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.dharmagoat wrote:Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
Re: the great rebirth debate
no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.dharmagoat wrote:Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
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Re: the great rebirth debate
Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: the great rebirth debate
What do you mean by "proper material"?5heaps wrote: no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: the great rebirth debate
No.dharmagoat wrote:Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
It's a problem.
They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.
Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: the great rebirth debate
My reading on these subjects has been very scant.5heaps wrote:no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
What books do you recommend?
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Re: the great rebirth debate
Yes, I now admit this quite regularly and it definitely circumvents both confusion and doubt.binocular wrote:They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.
I will, many thanks for the link.binocular wrote:Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
Re: the great rebirth debate
If you mean nibbāna-without-remainder, no. However absence of consciousness after death is less problematic than its eternal presence.porpoise wrote:Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.Ñāṇa wrote:Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable. But until it is known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with discernment, faith is considered to be indispensable according to the Buddha's dhamma. SN 48.44 Pubbakoṭṭhaka Sutta:Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
- Good, good Sāriputta! Those who have not known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with discernment, they would have to go by faith in others that the faculty of faith ... the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness ... the faculty of meditative composure ... the faculty of discernment, when developed and cultivated, has the death-free as its ground, the death-free as its destination, the death-free as its final goal.
- Faith is called the seed (Sn. v. 77) of all wholesome states because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind with confidence (okappana, pasāda) and determination (adhimokkha), for 'launching out' (pakkhandhana; s. M. 122) to cross the flood of saṃsāra.
Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of holiness, 'stream-entry' (sotāpatti, s. ariyapuggala), when the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikicchā; s. samyojana) is eliminated. Unshakable confidence (avecca-pasāda) in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner (sotāpannassa angāni, q.v.).
Re: the great rebirth debate
And how exactly is it known? How can one know that one is not merely hallucinating, dreaming, or imagining something?Ñāṇa wrote:Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable.
I don't have much faith in knowledge obtained through super powers. See this example that I've posted.
I wonder, faith precisely in what? I understand about faith in 4NT, anicca-asubha-dukkha-anatta, for example. These are very good teachings.Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of holiness, 'stream-entry' (sotāpatti, s. ariyapuggala), when the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikicchā; s. samyojana) is eliminated. Unshakable confidence (avecca-pasāda) in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner (sotāpannassa angāni
Re: the great rebirth debate
"Faith" means a lot more. A spectrum of the meaning of this word concerns things like 'loyalty, reliance on, consistency.'Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: the great rebirth debate
Loyalty to idea or relying on idea that one has no evidence for. Sure.binocular wrote:"Faith" means a lot more. A spectrum of the meaning of this word concerns things like 'loyalty, reliance on, consistency.'Alex123 wrote:Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
How does consistency fits into definition of "faith"?
Re: the great rebirth debate
In this case, by correctly following the noble eightfold path to it's conclusion. That is, through engaging in the complete and unerring causes and conditions of awakening. If one engages in erroneous causes and conditions the fruition will not be realized.Alex123 wrote:And how exactly is it known? How can one know that one is not merely hallucinating, dreaming, or imagining something?Ñāṇa wrote:Just because you may not personally know something doesn't mean that it is unknowable.
Okay.Alex123 wrote:I don't have much faith in knowledge obtained through super powers.
Yes, I already saw it. I thought binocular's replies to your concerns were appropriate. I also thought that you considered his suggestion helpful here.Alex123 wrote:See this example that I've posted.
Faith involves accepting the awakening of the Buddha. SN 55.37:Alex123 wrote:I wonder, faith precisely in what?
- "In what way, venerable sir, is a lay follower accomplished in faith?"
"Here, Mahānāma, a lay follower is a person of faith. He places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathāgata thus: 'The Blessed One is ... teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' In that way a lay follower is accomplished in faith."
- Friends, formerly when I lived the home life I was ignorant. Then the Tathāgata or his disciple taught me the Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma I acquired faith in the Tathāgata.
That's good. Do you understand that kamma and rebirth are implicit in the second noble truth?Alex123 wrote:I understand about faith in 4NT, anicca-asubha-dukkha-anatta, for example.