The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

dhamma follower wrote: You see, while access concentration in samatha makes the sign its object, in vipassana, what is called access concentration can not make the sign its object but the characteristics.
Yes, I understand the difference. However, we seem to read the texts (and our experiences) differently on how developed that concentration needs to be for insight.

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: [... in reply to Mr Man ... quotes deleted for brevity ... ]
I. I know if I look back a few decades I thought concentration as described in the texts was something to be gained/devloped by ‘concentrating” i.e unremitting focusing on some object or range of objects. That can certainly develop strong intensity of concentration, but it is not the right kind IMHO.
Anyway now I think concentration of the desirable kind is closely interwined with detachment and tranquility,.

II. So relating this to right view and especially that special insight detailed by the Buddha, it seems to me that any wise reflection at any level on anatta tends towards immediate tranquility to some degree. Think of seeing and visible object : reflecting how it is merely color that is seen, something so insignificant, tends towards detachment and a feeling of joy and peace. And one is at those moments instantly virtuos because no wish ot steal, to lie, to covet etc at the times of understanding the anattaness of elements.

III. And that is if there is only basic level reflection: think of how peaceful it is when color of seeing or sound and hearing are directly insighted.

IV. Furthemore I think this tranquility that comes from/with right understanding/knowing that is instantly associated with sila, brings concentration- the right kind- with it.
...
But of course this is not easy. As soon as we see the advantage of knowing realties, of reflecting wisely, one wants it more often or more deeply – and right at that moment one heads down the wrong way again-.
...
so it is a subtle matter, the way of vipassana

That is why I believe it is important that so much effort be put into right view,( both from studying the tetxs and studying the moment)
I don't see anything to disagree with here. You appear to be talking about putting effort into observing and understanding the arising of phenomena. And about how fickle the results of that can be, how easy it is to be dragged off in the wrong direction.

I'm only puzzled where you think there is a significant difference in principle between what you have written here and how I, and others, understand practice.

:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi robertk
robertk wrote: it seems to me that any wise reflection at any level on anatta tends towards immediate tranquility to some degree. Think of seeing and visible object : reflecting how it is merely color that is seen, something so insignificant, tends towards detachment and a feeling of joy and peace. And one is at those moments instantly virtuos because no wish ot steal, to lie, to covet etc at the times of understanding the anattaness of elements.
So this is how you practice (throughout the day)? This must take a fair amount of effort/vigilance.
robertk wrote: And that is if there is only basic level reflection: think of how peaceful it is when color of seeing or sound and hearing are directly insighted.
What do you mean by "directly insighted"? What would be the effort that immediately precedes the "direct insight" (is the mind being put into a particular place).
Thanks
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

mikenz66 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: You see, while access concentration in samatha makes the sign its object, in vipassana, what is called access concentration can not make the sign its object but the characteristics.
Yes, I understand the difference. However, we seem to read the texts (and our experiences) differently on how developed that concentration needs to be for insight.

:anjali:
Mike
There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise, whereas, we are saying that concentration (even strong one), can arise together with insight, which is conditioned by an accumulation of understanding of lower levels, starting from the intellectual understanding gained by wise consideration of the dhamma heard. Right understanding is the leader which carries concentration along.

It seems that one of the stumbling block for many people with this approach is that it is difficult to conceive how intellectual understanding can condition direct understanding without something in between. Therefore "formal practice" must come in to fill the gap. But we can look a little bit more in the matter: at the moment of right intellectual understanding, the panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) is already there. At that moment, the object of panna is still concepts, concepts about realities, but the quality of wisdom is present. When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. At any time there is a real understanding of what is the right object, and the studying of what appears now, all beautiful mental factors which arise with that understanding are accumulated and tend more and more towards the reality which appears instead of thinking about it. And when the conditions are sufficient, direct awareness of reality can arise.

The stronger understanding becomes, the stronger other accompanying mental factors become too, including concentration and effort. So when the level of understanding is such that it can reach the level of insight, the concentration that arises with it also is endowed with that same strenght, and comparable to the level of access concentration.

This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across. Anyone, even those who have followed this interpretation of the Dhamma by AS for a long time, still have times and again questions of "how to", or "trying to" at moments where there's not right understanding. Craving and wrong views belong to no one, so as long as we are not a sotapana, they are bound to happen in anyone, and can only be decreased with more and more right understanding. It is good to see them for what they are.

The good news is that panna has the faculty to penetrate, to illuminate and to know clearly. Therefore, even a little small panna which has arisen can verify the truthfulness of that, it knows its own power. But it doesn't last, it arises and falls away...

Any thoughts?

Brgds,

D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote: at the moment of right intellectual understanding, the panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) is already there. At that moment, the object of panna is still concepts, concepts about realities, but the quality of wisdom is present.
Much of what you are describing looks like the equation on the blackboard in this cartoon.


Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?
Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.
Last edited by kirk5a on Sun May 12, 2013 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

dhamma follower wrote:There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise,
There is this POV:
1) Hindrances prevent us from having deep insight.
  • "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment."-AN5.51
2) Samatha calms the hindrances which gives the possibility of having deep insight if one knows how to look.
  • "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."-AN5.51

Of course samatha does not cause insight, it merely sets the stage where deep insight can be developed.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

H Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:... When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. ...
So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else. And certainly seems be a "method" that your are convinced will "work". Of course, that "strong emphasis" arises from conditions, just as in any other "method".

I have no argument with your "method". It seems perfectly reasonable to me, since it's actually the same as what the rest of us think we are doing.

The disagreement, to me, is mostly over the insistence of KS students that they are "just letting conditions work", in contrast to "meditators". I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.
But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

kirk5a wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?
Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.
Dear Kirk,

Aren't you ignoring the fact that thousands of lay followers at the Buddha time didn't have any formal practice before they came to listen to the Buddha and became enlightened on the spot?

And the Buddha did say understanding gained from hearing the right Dhamma leads to the direct experience :
"There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
(7) And what is the food for mindfulness and full awareness?
Wise attention (yoniso manasikāra),84 should be the answer.
Wise attention, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(8) And what is the food for wise attention?
Faith (saddhā)
85 should be the answer.
Faith, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(9) And what is the food for faith?
Listening to the true Dharma (saddhamma-s,savana)
86 should be the answer.
Listening to the true Dharma, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(10) And what is the food for listening to the true Dharma?
Associating with true individuals (sappurisa,saṁseva)
87 should be the answer.

(Ahara) Avija sutta 10.61

Only set of conditions, One leading to another!

Brgds,

D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Alex123 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise,
There is this POV:
1) Hindrances prevent us from having deep insight.
  • "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment."-AN5.51
2) Samatha calms the hindrances which gives the possibility of having deep insight if one knows how to look.
  • "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."-AN5.51

Of course samatha does not cause insight, it merely sets the stage where deep insight can be developed.
Dear Alex,

A sutta that you are well familiar with:
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?

brgds,
D.F
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

dhamma follower wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?
Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.
Dear Kirk,

Aren't you ignoring the fact that thousands of lay followers at the Buddha time didn't have any formal practice before they came to listen to the Buddha and became enlightened on the spot?
Can you please provide the source for this event?
And the Buddha did say understanding gained from hearing the right Dhamma leads to the direct experience :
"There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]
Sure. One thing leads to the next, if the path is practiced accordingly. Merely hearing that statement "all things are unworthy of attachment" does not result in the rest automatically, inevitably, by necessity, with no further effort required.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Only set of conditions, One leading to another!
You seem to have the notion that one thing leads to another automatically, by necessity. If that was the case, then having read a sutta or two, enlightenment is inevitable, and there's nothing else one would need to do.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

dhamma follower wrote:What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?
Sukkha-vipassaka: 'one supported by bare insight', is the commentarial term for one who, without having attained any of the meditative absorptions jhāna, has realized only by the support of insight vipassanā one or several of the supra-mundane paths see: ariya-puggala In Vis.M XVIII, he is called suddha-vipassanā-yānika as distinguished from 'one who has tranquillity as vehicle' samathayānika. Though the primary meaning of sukkha as intended here is as stated above, subcommentaries e.g. D. Tīkā employ also the literal meaning of sukkha i.e. 'dry':;His insight is dry, rough, unmoistened by the moisture of tranquillity meditation.; This justifies a frequent rendering of this term by 'dry-visioned' or 'having dry insight', which, however, should not lead to misconceptions about the nature of insight meditation as being 'dry' or 'merely intellectual', while in fact the development of insight will produce rapture pīti and a sense of urgency samvega in the meditator. - App..
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... -vipassaka
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's the sutta that Dhamma Follower quoted above: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"
There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]
:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

mikenz66 wrote:H Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:... When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. ...
So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else. And certainly seems be a "method" that your are convinced will "work". Of course, that "strong emphasis" arises from conditions, just as in any other "method".

I have no argument with your "method". It seems perfectly reasonable to me, since it's actually the same as what the rest of us think we are doing.

The disagreement, to me, is mostly over the insistence of KS students that they are "just letting conditions work", in contrast to "meditators". I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

:anjali:

Mike
So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else
This is the reason I wrote this:
This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across
And that is also the reason why have to stress again and again on the differences, at the risk of sounding antagonist.

I don't think we should a avoid talking about differences, because it's there that lies any potential for growth. All AS' students are exposed to having their questions/arguments/sharings subjected to cristism under the light of right understanding, either by her or by others. I think that's is also the way it was in many sutta among the Buddha's disciples.

Now back to that line. To some, it seems to be a method, but that is not so. As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise). Actually, when there's emphasis on now, it doesn't mean that one should try to attend to what appears now, because then, it is a citta accompanied by wrong understanding and wanting that tries. Realities arise and pass away so rapidly, it can not be approached by a citta which wants to approach it. Actually, when we say " we try to be aware of what appears", we actually only think of what have arisen and fallen away, there's no actual approaching to that reality with right awareness. Only by the power of right understanding, when it is conditioned to arise, which can have vitaka leading the citta directly to the object, which is an extremely feeling dhamma which now can appear clearly. But hearing again and again that what is talked about is only the dhammas which appear now, and knowing clearly the difference between what is only thinking about a fallen away dhamma, and what is a dhamma, all that can condition the moment of direct understanding. But most important of all, it's the understanding that is is not a technique that one can do, but something that happens by conditions. This is an extremly subtle point.

Sayadaw U Tejanyia that you mentioned sometimes also says that there's no method for vipassana. When people come to him for instructions he usually says: now you are sitting, do you need to make an effort to know that you are sitting? Do you need to make an effort to know there's seeing, touching, hearing, thinking?
Once someone asked him "what is the secret meaning of the schedule "1 hour sitting, 1 hour walking"?", he laughed and said: "just because it is a meditation center and we have to have a schedule so people are not at loss as how to spend their time, otherwise they would just sit and chat."

Being one of his old students and having had many conversations with him, I personally think that he would agree with most, if not all, the points raised by AS. He also says: let's wisdom do its own work. However, the very idea that there should be a method, a technique, there's a person who has to strive, be it in a meditation center or in daily life, is very deeply anchored. So I think what I have found extremly helpful in AS's way of explaining the Dhamma, is that she places the utmost importance on explaining that the Path is an impersonal process, and on what are the right causes for the right effects. She also pointed out what is not sati that is usually taken to be sati, and that is a very important step too.

There are many people, who read or listen to AS's discussions, and say that they agree with everything, but usually, when it comes to this point, they either can't agree or see it at a breakthrough. That is the reason why we pick out that point again and again, because it is the corner stone. Fruitful or not, I don't know, because it depends rather on the accumulations of each person.

Brgds,
D.F
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