The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 09, 2013 5:03 pm

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What were are being asked to believe by the Sujin followers, in the most bare terms, is that by thinking about a concept we have heard a remarkable level of concentration and awareness will automatically arise.


Well, it's not such an outlandish idea. There are stories of plenty of people who have heard a few words from the Buddha, practiced a little, and "in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now."

Perhaps we wrongfully take for granted that we're not close, not ripe for such a quick path to enlightenment.
My guess you have not been reading this thread from its inception. The Sujinists here talk about their practice taking eons to come to fruition, so it does not look that they are advocating a "ripeness" -- a la Bahiya -- possibility in their hearing, thinking about, and hoping for insight.

An interesting example of the "ripeness" possibility is, indeed, the case of Bahiya, who was given very brief and very specific instructions and as a result of which he woke up. The same instructions are given to Ven. Malunkyaputta, who had to actually put them into practice before waking up. The instructions in these suttas are just that: instruction for practice. That Bahiya woke up upon hearing these instructions points to two things: the efficacy of the instructions as well as the the Buddha's ability to teach the right thing to the right person at the right time. But for us what is important is the efficacy of the instructions.

While we may have the Buddha's teachings, we do not have do not have the Buddha himself sitting directly in front of us with his abilities, saying just the right thing. But we do have the Buddha's teaching and what we do with them is to put them into practice. It is not a matter of just hearing them and then thinking about them, hoping that that will somehow cause insight to arise.

As the Buddha's teachings make clear, we can cultivate those aspects that are natural to our minds, concentration and attention, that will allow us to see what needs to be seen clearly, giving rise to insight.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri May 10, 2013 10:40 am

Mr Man wrote:So "momentary concentration" is the standard concentration that all beings would have which comes with being alive? And this concentration has different levels of intensity. Normally it is through sustained application that intensity is developed. robertk how would you say the intensity of concentration arises?

Dear Mr man
Thanks for the discussion.
I. I know if I look back a few decades I thought concentration as described in the texts was something to be gained/devloped by ‘concentrating” i.e unremitting focusing on some object or range of objects. That can certainly develop strong intensity of concentration, but it is not the right kind IMHO.
Anyway now I think concentration of the desirable kind is closely interwined with detachment and tranquility,.

II. So relating this to right view and especially that special insight detailed by the Buddha, it seems to me that any wise reflection at any level on anatta tends towards immediate tranquility to some degree. Think of seeing and visible object : reflecting how it is merely color that is seen, something so insignificant, tends towards detachment and a feeling of joy and peace. And one is at those moments instantly virtuos because no wish ot steal, to lie, to covet etc at the times of understanding the anattaness of elements.

III. And that is if there is only basic level reflection: think of how peaceful it is when color of seeing or sound and hearing are directly insighted.

IV. Furthemore I think this tranquility that comes from/with right understanding/knowing that is instantly associated with sila, brings concentration- the right kind- with it.

[Mod edit: Ven Nyanaponika translation of AN 10.2, NDB 1340]

For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue, there is no need for an act of will:[6] "May non-remorse arise in me!"; it is natural,[7] monks, that non-remorse will arise in one who is virtuous.


For one who is glad (at heart), there is no need for an act of will: "May (deep inner) joy arise in me!"; it is natural for one glad (at heart) that joy arises in him.

For one who has a (deep inner) joy, there is no need for an act of will: "May my body be tranquil!";[8] it is natural for one of joyful mind that his body will be tranquil.

For one of tranquil body, there is no need for an act of will: "May I feel happiness!"; it is natural for one who is tranquil that he will feel happiness.

For one who is happy, there is no need for an act of will: "May my mind be concentrated!"; it is natural for one who is happy that his mind will be concentrated.

For one who is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will: "May I know and see reality as it is!"; it is natural for a concentrated mind to know and see reality as it is.

In that way, monks, these qualities are integrated with the other qualities;[9] and in that way these qualities bring other qualities to perfection, for going from the here to the beyond (of conditioned reality).[10]


But of course this is not easy. AS soon as we see the advantage of knowing realties, of reflecting wisely, one wants it more often or more deeply – and right at that moment one heads down the wrong way again-.
,
Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, par. 5,
'Now what think you, Ananda? Which is the harder, which is the harder task to compass: To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?'

'Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, much the harder task.'

'Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.

[Mod edit: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html CDB ii 1869]


so it is a subtle matter, the way of vipassana

That is why I believe it is important that so much effort be put into right view,( both from studying the tetxs and studying the moment):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri May 10, 2013 2:33 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Mike


Dear Mike,

That "concentration is classed as access and absorption" is taken from the chapter of Concentration development, in other words, samatha bhavana. [/quote]
I think you are mistaken. That quote is a footnote of the Commentary on chapter 1, which gives an overview of the entire process of purification. Here is the whole quote:

[Visuddhimagga, Chapter I paragraph 6]
6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, [3] according
as it is said:
    “Formations are all impermanent:
    When he sees thus with understanding
    And turns away from what is ill,
    That is the path to purity” (Dhp 277).
[3] “The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e.
jhána), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is for
emphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction
[of jhána]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see IV.32). Taking this stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence,
pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone” (Vism-mhþ 9–10).


I also gave some other quotes from the start of:
Visuddhimagga: CHAPTER XVIII PURIFICATION OF VIEW (Diþþhi-visuddhi-niddesa

here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 07#p244480

The quotes I gave above and in that link are specifically talking about dry insight. I suggest you read them in context. The Visuddhimagga is on line here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html

:anjali:
Mike[/quote]

Dear Mike,

Actually, I was refering to the sentence "for concentration is classed as both access and absorption".Sorry for being too brief. What I wanted to say is that, since it was referring to access concentration of samatha practice, which has concept as object, whereas insight practice has characteristics as object, the meaning of "access" here shouldn't be taken as the same as in samatha, but rather it is the strength of the concentration at that level that it being refered to.

We read:

Now, concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and
absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is,
on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes
concentrated on the plane of access by the abandonment of the hindrances, and
on the plane of obtainment by the manifestation of the jhána factors.
33. The difference between the two kinds of concentration is this. The factors
are not strong in access. It is because they are not strong that when access has
arisen, the mind now makes the sign its object and now re-enters the lifecontinuum,13 just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, itrepeatedly falls down on the ground. But the factors are strong in absorption. It
is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the
mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a
stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a
healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day


(Visudhimagga, chapter IV, 32)

You see, while access concentration in samatha makes the sign its object, in vipassana, what is called access concentration can not make the sign its object but the characteristics.

Brgds,

D.F
Last edited by dhamma follower on Sun May 12, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri May 10, 2013 3:02 pm

Mr Man wrote:So "momentary concentration" is the standard concentration that all beings would have which comes with being alive? And this concentration has different levels of intensity. Normally it is through sustained application that intensity is developed. robertk how would you say the intensity of concentration arises?


Dear Mr Man,

In addition to the excellent answers and quotes given by RobertK, I will give you some of my thoughts:

According to the Abhidhamma, sustained application (vicara in Pali) is present in 66 kinds of citta (out of 89 in total). That means, vicara is quite common place as well. Even now, as you are reading these lines, vicara should be there too. In samatha development, vicara is said to have the role of sustain the mind on the object so that the minds doesn't turn towards other objects. However, as far as intensity of concentration is concerned, i think the description of access and absorption I gave in my above posts better reflects the different degrees of intensity, which actually is a high and firm degree of wholesomeness.

Vicara arises with both wholesome and unwholesome cittas, so there can be high degrees of concentration without its being the right concentration praised by the Buddha. So in the end, it should be understood that it is not the will to stay on the object which is the main cause for (wholesome) access or absorption to arise, but it is the understanding which sees the disadvantage of unwholesomeness, of the danger of sense pleasure that causes vicara to not stray away from the object.

In the case of vipassana bhavana, however, there's no object which requires vicara to sustain the mind upon, like in samatha bhavana. But as there's more and more understanding of the nature of realities, the tendency to grasps at whatever appears as someone or something decreases, allowing higher and higher levels of understanding to arise, and along with it, the intensity of the accompanying concentration increases accordingly.

Once I listened to a talk by AS, where someone asked her why concentration is said to manifest as calm, she answered (I quote from memory only, no precision):

Now, there's concentration every moment, right? Why we can not see its characteristics. But when there is calmness, true calmness, its characteristics appear


This is quite in line even with what we know of samatha bhavana: at the level of jhanna, concentration mental factor (ekkagata cetasika) is discerned (as jhana factor). It is a moment of calm.

Similarly, at the moment of insight, which is a moment of a high degree of wholesomeness and understanding, it can be known that the strength of concentration at that moment is indeed very strong, like access concentration in bhavana practice.

Brgds,

D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Fri May 10, 2013 3:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:My guess you have not been reading this thread from its inception. The Sujinists here talk about their practice taking eons to come to fruition, so it does not look that they are advocating a "ripeness" -- a la Bahiya -- possibility in their hearing, thinking about, and hoping for insight.

From what I've read so far, her teachings seem to be inconsistent. There is both a strong salvationist theme (to the effect of "You need someone to tell you what to do, you need someone to save you, you can't do it yourself") but also the theme the the effect of "You're really close already anyway, it's all very easy."

Even more oddly, she even seems to teach things that make her redundant. E.g. "The Buddha taught us to listen to dhamma, not people." or "Be an island. . . depend on oneself, one’s own understanding which can eradicate one’s defilements."

I'm puzzled how come some posters here seem so troubled with her/her approach. I've noticed there are many truisms in her teachings (see the post linked to above), and I tend to find it easy not to pay much attention to people who proclaim truisms.
Last edited by binocular on Fri May 10, 2013 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 10, 2013 3:38 pm

robertk wrote:IV. Furthemore I think this tranquility that comes from/with right understanding/knowing that is instantly associated with sila, brings concentration- the right kind- with it.

[Mod edit: Ven Nyanaponika translation of AN 10.2, NDB 1340]

For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue, there is no need for an act of will:[6] "May non-remorse arise in me!"; it is natural,[7] monks, that non-remorse will arise in one who is virtuous.
The problem is, robertk, you have not shown that the text does really supports your position.

But of course this is not easy. AS soon as we see the advantage of knowing realties, of reflecting wisely, one wants it more often or more deeply – and right at that moment one heads down the wrong way again-.
Except if one is really doing the practice, when this "wanting" rears its head, one is aware of it. It is part of dealing with life as it is, as it presents itself.
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; MN 10
And being aware of it, it becomes an occasion for insight, given that wanting, like any other conditioned dhamma, aries and falls dependent upon conditions and is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. And this is not necessarily something one needs to think about. It is a matter of seeing the the rise and fall of the wanting.
Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, par. 5,
'Now what think you, Ananda? Which is the harder, which is the harder task to compass: To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?'

'Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, much the harder task.'

'Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.

[Mod edit: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html CDB ii 1869]


so it is a subtle matter, the way of vipassana
Subtle, but not impossible, which is why the Buddha outlined a way of practice.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 10, 2013 8:39 pm

dhamma follower wrote:You see, while access concentration in samatha makes the sign its object, in vipassana, what is called access concentration can not make the sign its object but the characteristics.

Yes, I understand the difference. However, we seem to read the texts (and our experiences) differently on how developed that concentration needs to be for insight.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 10, 2013 9:00 pm

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote:[... in reply to Mr Man ... quotes deleted for brevity ... ]
I. I know if I look back a few decades I thought concentration as described in the texts was something to be gained/devloped by ‘concentrating” i.e unremitting focusing on some object or range of objects. That can certainly develop strong intensity of concentration, but it is not the right kind IMHO.
Anyway now I think concentration of the desirable kind is closely interwined with detachment and tranquility,.

II. So relating this to right view and especially that special insight detailed by the Buddha, it seems to me that any wise reflection at any level on anatta tends towards immediate tranquility to some degree. Think of seeing and visible object : reflecting how it is merely color that is seen, something so insignificant, tends towards detachment and a feeling of joy and peace. And one is at those moments instantly virtuos because no wish ot steal, to lie, to covet etc at the times of understanding the anattaness of elements.

III. And that is if there is only basic level reflection: think of how peaceful it is when color of seeing or sound and hearing are directly insighted.

IV. Furthemore I think this tranquility that comes from/with right understanding/knowing that is instantly associated with sila, brings concentration- the right kind- with it.
...
But of course this is not easy. As soon as we see the advantage of knowing realties, of reflecting wisely, one wants it more often or more deeply – and right at that moment one heads down the wrong way again-.
...
so it is a subtle matter, the way of vipassana

That is why I believe it is important that so much effort be put into right view,( both from studying the tetxs and studying the moment)

I don't see anything to disagree with here. You appear to be talking about putting effort into observing and understanding the arising of phenomena. And about how fickle the results of that can be, how easy it is to be dragged off in the wrong direction.

I'm only puzzled where you think there is a significant difference in principle between what you have written here and how I, and others, understand practice.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 am

Hi robertk
robertk wrote: it seems to me that any wise reflection at any level on anatta tends towards immediate tranquility to some degree. Think of seeing and visible object : reflecting how it is merely color that is seen, something so insignificant, tends towards detachment and a feeling of joy and peace. And one is at those moments instantly virtuos because no wish ot steal, to lie, to covet etc at the times of understanding the anattaness of elements.

So this is how you practice (throughout the day)? This must take a fair amount of effort/vigilance.
robertk wrote:And that is if there is only basic level reflection: think of how peaceful it is when color of seeing or sound and hearing are directly insighted.

What do you mean by "directly insighted"? What would be the effort that immediately precedes the "direct insight" (is the mind being put into a particular place).
Thanks

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sun May 12, 2013 2:10 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:You see, while access concentration in samatha makes the sign its object, in vipassana, what is called access concentration can not make the sign its object but the characteristics.

Yes, I understand the difference. However, we seem to read the texts (and our experiences) differently on how developed that concentration needs to be for insight.

:anjali:
Mike


There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise, whereas, we are saying that concentration (even strong one), can arise together with insight, which is conditioned by an accumulation of understanding of lower levels, starting from the intellectual understanding gained by wise consideration of the dhamma heard. Right understanding is the leader which carries concentration along.

It seems that one of the stumbling block for many people with this approach is that it is difficult to conceive how intellectual understanding can condition direct understanding without something in between. Therefore "formal practice" must come in to fill the gap. But we can look a little bit more in the matter: at the moment of right intellectual understanding, the panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) is already there. At that moment, the object of panna is still concepts, concepts about realities, but the quality of wisdom is present. When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. At any time there is a real understanding of what is the right object, and the studying of what appears now, all beautiful mental factors which arise with that understanding are accumulated and tend more and more towards the reality which appears instead of thinking about it. And when the conditions are sufficient, direct awareness of reality can arise.

The stronger understanding becomes, the stronger other accompanying mental factors become too, including concentration and effort. So when the level of understanding is such that it can reach the level of insight, the concentration that arises with it also is endowed with that same strenght, and comparable to the level of access concentration.

This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across. Anyone, even those who have followed this interpretation of the Dhamma by AS for a long time, still have times and again questions of "how to", or "trying to" at moments where there's not right understanding. Craving and wrong views belong to no one, so as long as we are not a sotapana, they are bound to happen in anyone, and can only be decreased with more and more right understanding. It is good to see them for what they are.

The good news is that panna has the faculty to penetrate, to illuminate and to know clearly. Therefore, even a little small panna which has arisen can verify the truthfulness of that, it knows its own power. But it doesn't last, it arises and falls away...

Any thoughts?

Brgds,

D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 12, 2013 2:35 pm

dhamma follower wrote: at the moment of right intellectual understanding, the panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) is already there. At that moment, the object of panna is still concepts, concepts about realities, but the quality of wisdom is present.
Much of what you are describing looks like the equation on the blackboard in this cartoon.


Image
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Sun May 12, 2013 4:24 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?

Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.
Last edited by kirk5a on Sun May 12, 2013 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 12, 2013 4:35 pm

dhamma follower wrote:There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise,


There is this POV:
1) Hindrances prevent us from having deep insight.
    "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment."-AN5.51

2) Samatha calms the hindrances which gives the possibility of having deep insight if one knows how to look.
    "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."-AN5.51


Of course samatha does not cause insight, it merely sets the stage where deep insight can be developed.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 12, 2013 7:39 pm

H Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:... When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. ...

So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else. And certainly seems be a "method" that your are convinced will "work". Of course, that "strong emphasis" arises from conditions, just as in any other "method".

I have no argument with your "method". It seems perfectly reasonable to me, since it's actually the same as what the rest of us think we are doing.

The disagreement, to me, is mostly over the insistence of KS students that they are "just letting conditions work", in contrast to "meditators". I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 12, 2013 7:45 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.
But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Mon May 13, 2013 2:40 am

kirk5a wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?

Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.


Dear Kirk,

Aren't you ignoring the fact that thousands of lay followers at the Buddha time didn't have any formal practice before they came to listen to the Buddha and became enlightened on the spot?

And the Buddha did say understanding gained from hearing the right Dhamma leads to the direct experience :

"There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(7) And what is the food for mindfulness and full awareness?
Wise attention (yoniso manasikāra),84 should be the answer.
Wise attention, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(8) And what is the food for wise attention?
Faith (saddhā)
85 should be the answer.
Faith, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(9) And what is the food for faith?
Listening to the true Dharma (saddhamma-s,savana)
86 should be the answer.
Listening to the true Dharma, too, bhikshus, is with food, I say, not without food.
(10) And what is the food for listening to the true Dharma?
Associating with true individuals (sappurisa,saṁseva)
87 should be the answer.


(Ahara) Avija sutta 10.61

Only set of conditions, One leading to another!

Brgds,

D.F

dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 am

Alex123 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:There's another difference too: you seem to be saying that concentration must reach a certain level before insight can arise,


There is this POV:
1) Hindrances prevent us from having deep insight.
    "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment."-AN5.51

2) Samatha calms the hindrances which gives the possibility of having deep insight if one knows how to look.
    "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."-AN5.51


Of course samatha does not cause insight, it merely sets the stage where deep insight can be developed.


Dear Alex,

A sutta that you are well familiar with:

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?

brgds,
D.F

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 2:52 am

dhamma follower wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Any thoughts?

Yes. All of what you are saying ignores the plain fact that right concentration can be developed by skillful, volitional direction of one's attention. Which is why the Buddha said things like:
Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and did not speak, as you do, of mere intellectual understanding conditioning the entire path.


Dear Kirk,

Aren't you ignoring the fact that thousands of lay followers at the Buddha time didn't have any formal practice before they came to listen to the Buddha and became enlightened on the spot?

Can you please provide the source for this event?
And the Buddha did say understanding gained from hearing the right Dhamma leads to the direct experience :

"There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]


Sure. One thing leads to the next, if the path is practiced accordingly. Merely hearing that statement "all things are unworthy of attachment" does not result in the rest automatically, inevitably, by necessity, with no further effort required.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Only set of conditions, One leading to another!

You seem to have the notion that one thing leads to another automatically, by necessity. If that was the case, then having read a sutta or two, enlightenment is inevitable, and there's nothing else one would need to do.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 3:12 am

dhamma follower wrote:What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?

Sukkha-vipassaka: 'one supported by bare insight', is the commentarial term for one who, without having attained any of the meditative absorptions jhāna, has realized only by the support of insight vipassanā one or several of the supra-mundane paths see: ariya-puggala In Vis.M XVIII, he is called suddha-vipassanā-yānika as distinguished from 'one who has tranquillity as vehicle' samathayānika. Though the primary meaning of sukkha as intended here is as stated above, subcommentaries e.g. D. Tīkā employ also the literal meaning of sukkha i.e. 'dry':;His insight is dry, rough, unmoistened by the moisture of tranquillity meditation.; This justifies a frequent rendering of this term by 'dry-visioned' or 'having dry insight', which, however, should not lead to misconceptions about the nature of insight meditation as being 'dry' or 'merely intellectual', while in fact the development of insight will produce rapture pīti and a sense of urgency samvega in the meditator. - App..

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... -vipassaka
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 13, 2013 3:13 am

Here's the sutta that Dhamma Follower quoted above: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"
There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes[2] as something separate. [3]

:anjali:
Mike


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