Difficulty with certain kind of conception of Kamma.

[Alex123]

With this kind of speculation

It is not a speculation, but analysis of certain teaching.

[Doshin]

Hello all,
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3) Question: Since kusala/akusala kamma done aeons ago can play out today, what determines which kammavipāka will mature today? It almost seems like it could be any mundane kamma result (see #2).
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Any answers?

Watch out for "madness and vexation" ;) AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable:

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them.

Spcificaly:
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

_/\_

[Bakmoon]

3) Question: Since kusala/akusala kamma done aeons ago can play out today, what determines which kammavipāka will mature today? It almost seems like it could be any mundane kamma result (see #2).

So kamma as explanation of "why bad things happen to good people" runs into this difficulty of randomness or equality. Over infinite time span, mundane kamma that you have done is overally the same as kamma that I have done, thus it cannot be a basis for distinction about what happens today.

In regards to question 3, I would say that the conditions for the vipaka need to be right for it to occur. I don't know of any comprehensive analysis of the different conditions for vipaka, and I suspect that only a Sammasambuddha is able to tell exactly what conditions are required for a specific kamma to come to fruit.

To the part about kamma and infinite span of time, I would say that most of that kamma has already had its vipaka and so isn't part of the equation any more for that person, so each person will still have their own distinct set of kamma that hasn't come to fruit yet.

[fivebells]

3) Question: Since kusala/akusala kamma done aeons ago can play out today, what determines which kammavipāka will mature today? It almost seems like it could be any mundane kamma result (see #2).

Certain perspectives are useful, even if they can't be rigorously verified. Sometimes, even perspectives which seem quite implausible can be useful. That's the case here. Suppose you could routinely steal something with absolutely no risk, ever, that you would be caught. This perspective will protect you from taking that opportunity, which would be harmful to your practice because you would come to depend on harming others (stealing) for your own welfare.

Buddhist practice is ultimately about freedom from all fabrication, but along the way you learn to fabricate useful states of mind to replace the default fabrications. These useful fabrications can be shifts in perceptual emphasis, or even shifts in beliefs. I personally don't believe in post-mortem rebirth or kammic retribution as cosmic re-equalizer, but I'm starting to see how such beliefs could be useful.

[Alex123]

I personally don't believe in post-mortem rebirth or kammic retribution as cosmic re-equalizer, but I'm starting to see how such beliefs could be useful.

I can see how belief in rebirth and kamma can be useful, it is just hard for me to believe in them.

[fivebells]

And I'm not saying you should believe it. I don't believe it either. I'm just saying perhaps progress on the path includes skill in fabricating skillful beliefs. There are cases where the Buddha rebuts beliefs not in terms of their ontological validity, but in terms of their psychological implications and effects ('These standpoints, thus assumed and thus misapprehended, lead to such a future destination, to such a state in the world beyond.') It suggests to me that ontological beliefs may be things to pick up and put down as the practice demands, just like the verbal wishes one makes in formal brahmavihara practice in order to connect to the actual feeling of the brahmaviharas.

[Polar Bear]

With this kind of speculation

It is not a speculation, but analysis of certain teaching.

Actually you were speculating on whether there was a first cause, a first moment, whether the cosmos is eternal or not, whether a first moment was conditioned or unconditioned. This is just speculation that leads away from the goal which is the elimination of passion, aversion and delusion.

"Potthapada, I haven't expounded that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless."

"Then is it the case that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?"

"Potthapada, I haven't expounded that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless."

"Then is it the case that the cosmos is finite... the cosmos is infinite... the soul & the body are the same... the soul is one thing and the body another... after death a Tathagata exists... after death a Tathagata does not exist... after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist... after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?"

"Potthapada, I haven't expounded that after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless."

"But why hasn't the Blessed One expounded these things?"

"Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I haven't expounded them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'Those who teach a Dhamma for the abandoning of passion, for the abandoning of aversion, for the abandoning of delusion — their Dhamma is well-taught. Those who have practiced for the abandoning of passion, for the abandoning of aversion, for the abandoning of delusion — they have practiced well in this world. Those whose passion... aversion... delusion is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising: they, in this world, are well-gone.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Malunkyaputta, it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[dxm_dxm]

There is no effect without a cause. For the reason you were born here and exist you will be born and exist in the future until you will destroy that cause and not exist anymore and be in nirvana. The thing that decides your conditions of existence is karma. The reason why it is karma is not possible to find out using intellectual thinking but only by meditating and finding that it is true/false within yourself. That is the official budhist view on this problem. If there could be proven using intellectual thinking that karma is the law that decides the conditions of your existence we would live in a world of saints.

Also nobody said we had an infinite number of rebirths before this. We had a big but limited number of rebirths. (about your quote, does 4 oceans seem limited or unlimited?) The reason why you came into existence in the first place is also something impossible to understand through intellectual thinking and budha said it is impossible to explain in words that, just like it is impossible to explain quantum phisics to a dog so you have to find that answer by yourself using the techniques you consider apropiate.

Although budhism is a system that has never been contradicted, proven illogical, disproved scientifically by nobody in 2500 years it has these 2 spots you touched (probably 3 do not remember exactly) that can be neither proven nor disproved intellectually, just like string theory. Sad but you have to live with it. The nice part is that it gives no importance to intellectual thinking and promises you to find out the answers by yourself using the techniques it teaches, that is the whole point.

[Alex123]

There is no effect without a cause....We had a big but limited number of rebirths.

Ok. What was the cause of the FIRST birth? Or was it causeless? If first birth had a cause, what was the cause of that cause? And what the cause of that cause?
Ad infinitum.

So two statements "big but limited number of rebirths" and "There is no effect without a cause" contradict each other. Or there was some infinite string of causes before first birth occurred.

[dxm_dxm]

As I said, it is something impossible to comprehend with intellectual thinking. It could not be a cause and at the same time it could not be causeless. It is something impossible to comprehend with our human brain just like you can't teach quantum physics to a dog. Budha said the same thing, that the "first cause" is one of the 4 unthinkables and that thinking intelectually about it would lead only to further confusion.

As I said, it is sad for me too but if somebody had an intellectual answer for this he would be 100x times more renowned than Einstine.

Think about the good part: budha said do not belive anything you hear, even if you heard it from me because even if it is right it has little value and you can never be sure. He teached the way to find out for yourself the answers but u have to cope with the idea that it will take a couple of time to do that. At least your dopamine and serotonine levels will skyrocket while doing that as a bonus to make it worth it for sure

[fivebells]

Alex123, is your confusion about this getting in the way of your practice?

[pegembara]

How do you reconcile with this advice from the Buddha?

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Because of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, becoming arises. Because of becoming, birth arises. Because of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would your mind run to the past: 'Was I in the past or was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus, run to the future: 'Will I be in the future, or will I not be in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus have doubts about the present: 'Am I, or am I not? What am I? How am I? Where did this being come from? Where will it go?'" "No, venerable sir." MN38

[binocular]

With this kind of speculation

It is not a speculation, but analysis of certain teaching.

Actually you were speculating on whether there was a first cause, a first moment, whether the cosmos is eternal or not, whether a first moment was conditioned or unconditioned. This is just speculation that leads away from the goal which is the elimination of passion, aversion and delusion.

I think that the main difference between speculation and analysis (as understood here) is that speculation is done with the intention to come to a definitive conclusion that one could build upon, involving a lot of clinging and feeling pressured to figure it all out; while analysis isn't weighed down by such clinging and pressure. Analysis is done with the intention to experiment, to try this and that, to figure out potential explanations, and look at their logical consequences.

But some topics, esp. those listed in the four unconjecturables, do not render themselves to be readily analysed; there is something about them or about us that tends to get us into speculation mode, that clingy, cringy, now-or-never, all-or-nothing mode where discernment isn't quite possible anymore.

[5heaps]

This seems to make kamma result to be somewhat random if ...ALL pleasant/unpleasant resultant events that happen are results of past kamma.

Well, this isn't said to be the case (it is actually refuted) so the question is a mere hypothetical, neh?

Well, if we analyze what is taught - it seems like any kind of result can happen at any times. If rebirths were not infinite in amount, then we would not have this problem.

kammas are mental factors in the mental consciousness. when you commit a discernible action a discrete kamma is produced which constantly changes and functions.

the reason why one particular kamma would ripen whereas others do not has to do with causes and conditions, for example things such as the type of mind you currently have, the accompanying mental factors ie. feeling, concentration, intention, mental habits and traits etc, the object of awareness, how long ago the kamma was created, etcetc. it is completely non-random. endless and beginningless time, mind, and energy cannot somehow make the process not non-random.

[hermitwin]

when does the result of a bad kamma bear fruit?
consider your present circumstances.
are you able to find food n shelter, free
from torture, imprisonment, seriuos debilitating illness?
then that is already the result of your good kamma.

while only the buddha can know the intricacies of
the workings of kamma, some things are pretty
obvious.

try spitting into someone's face or kicking a dog,
you wont have to wait very long to see the result of
your akusala.