Indulging in sensuality and kamma

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Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby Stephen K » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:29 pm

Sensual pleasure is said to be "vulgar, coarse, ignoble and unbeneficial"; does this mean it constitutes bad kamma?
With metta,
Upāsaka Sumana
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:53 pm

Does it matter? Unbeneficial is unbeneficial, right?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:29 pm

Interesting question



An intentional action motivated by greed is unwholesome kamma. Sensual pleasure is always motivated by greed so doesnt that mean everytime one endulges they are creating negative kamma?
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby Stephen K » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:37 pm

Ben wrote:something unusual

But.. Ben, isn't this the General forum?

:smile:
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby Ben » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:54 pm

Stefan wrote:
Ben wrote:Something unusual

But.. Ben, isn't this the General forum?

:smile:


Indeed!
What was I thinking?
In future, I won't come on to Dhamma Wheel before waking up.
Now for some self-deleting...
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby phil » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:36 am

Stefan wrote:Sensual pleasure is said to be "vulgar, coarse, ignoble and unbeneficial"; does this mean it constitutes bad kamma?


Hi Stefan

Fantastic topic!

If I understand correctly, when there are deeds of body, speech and mind that consitute akusala kamma patha (there are ten of them) there is the kind of kamma that can condition rebirth in woeful realms (Hells, animal realm etc) but otherwise we are just accumulating attachment to the sensual pleasure. That will make us more likely to transgress in the ways above when conditions are there. But we can only very gradually outgrow that kind of accumulation. But we *can* become aware whenever there are transgressions, and start from there, avoiding them at all cost. That's just my take. (If there is transgression, no need for grief and browbeating, we can just take note, make a vow to avoid that behaviour in the future and move on.. the transgressions will become less and less frequent if we stay open to the Buddha's teaching, I'm utterly confident about that.)

Metta,

Phil
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(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:43 am

Well said.

I think it should be noted that sensual pleasure itself is neutral. A feeling of pleasure is just a feeling. Indulging in sensual pleasure is said to be "vulgar, coarse, ignoble and unbeneficial". As phil said, doing so builds habits and strengthens craving. This can easily lead to doing one or more of the 10 unwholesome actions. For example, greed for sensual pleasures can lead one to steal.
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby gavesako » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:28 pm

Stefan wrote:Sensual pleasure is said to be "vulgar, coarse, ignoble and unbeneficial"; does this mean it constitutes bad kamma?


In many Suttas the Buddha talks about "enjoyment of abundant sensual pleasure" as one of the fruits of good kamma for the layperson, so there is no negative judgement on that level. As a monk, one will tend to view it differently of course, because one is practising towards "neither black nor white kamma".
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby nathan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:19 pm

If your picture is anything to go on, you look quite young and seem healthy and are likely having quite a lot of fun. Would that be more or less correct? If so, it is probably not very easy for you to understand where all that is going to end up. I would suggest taking a long hard look at a whole lot of senior citizens and very sick people. Because that is where all the fun is always going to end up. It isn't that sensations aren't always at least potentially very, very pleasant, they are. The problem is that the pleasant sensations inevitably lead to very, very unpleasant sensations followed by death. That's why the Buddha says, and I agree, that in terms of the bigger picture, the whole deal sucks.
:anjali:
Last edited by nathan on Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby gavesako » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:07 pm

From their 1975 album, Wish You Were Here; Pink Floyd's single, "Wish You Were Here"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCCz4mtd0E

Lyrics:
So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have you found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.


This song, I find, has a deep meaning, almost a Buddhist intuition of the nature of Samsara, don't you find?
And I was born in 1975...
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Indulging in sensuality and kamma

Postby nathan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:31 pm

gavesako wrote:"Wish You Were Here"
And I loved playing those chords. I've played the song at funerals. Would go for a round of it at mine, maybe while the smoke pours out of the oven.
:thumbsup:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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