Right Livelihood, business in meat

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby marc108 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:11 pm

I have been wondering about the details of no business in meat but can't seem to find any Suttas with details.
Would this include the owner of a restaurant that sells cooked meat dishes, or is it meant specifically for those selling and slaughtering live animals?

Thanks all :)
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:36 pm

I believe that most people include raising animals for slaughter, slaughtering, butchering, and selling meat as wrong livelihood; it is not necessarily improper to buy meat and cook it for customers, but I think it's definitely one of the less wholesome livelihoods out there.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Yep. Raising animals with the intention to sell them to a slaughterhouse and slaughtering them is wrong livelyhood.

Being a farmer is not so good, expecially when you are not growing stuff organically, = without the use of insectides.
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:36 am

marc108 wrote:I have been wondering about the details of no business in meat but can't seem to find any Suttas with details.
Would this include the owner of a restaurant that sells cooked meat dishes, or is it meant specifically for those selling and slaughtering live animals?

Thanks all :)




Business (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human** beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."


** I am not sure if just Human is right here as it is "satta" which incl. animals.
Satta => Satta2 [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & rational being, a person

I guess this are good chosen words "should not engage" even some scholars may say its just something on the selling/trader side. Seller and buyer are not different from each other and involved in a trade. Costumer and Company for examply is something that seems to be different but actually is not.

If one would have a business with bones, maybe a bones processing fabric to produce soap, he would be engaged in business with animals as well as business in meat. Maybe even in business with weapons and business with poision (depending on which kind of soap he produces)

How ever, from the raw to the fine. What ever one is aware of and has seen by him self. We might get pulled down, seeing the results of globalisation and chaotic interdependency caused by outsourcing of the unbeautiful.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:46 am

Annapurna wrote:Yep. Raising animals with the intention to sell them to a slaughterhouse and slaughtering them is wrong livelyhood.
So you think that just raise them to sell them would be ok?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:23 am

I don't know, it probably depends on the circumstances and outcome.

Like, when you sell a foal to have it living with people who want to sit on it's back, for sports, it would not be so problematic. (Obviously inspired by Ben's foal.... :smile: )

I watched a documentayr abot Haflinger this week, where they were breeding a high class version of this horse, and a good foal is just as expensive as a good car, like 50 000 €.

It's an intelligent, healthy and eager horse.

They say they WANT to learn and train new things so badly they get jealous of horses which are taken to lessons before them.

It speaks for the owners and trainers very much that the horses are enjoying their work so much they can't wait to go!

I think that's how it should be and how we should treat our winged and hoofed friends.

But a think the calf of a cow has another destiny and raising it---it's always exploitation for some species, Ausbeutung, and as such problematic.

Your thoughts, Hanzze?
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:46 am

Image

Fot those of you who've never seen a Haflinger, here's a pretty one.

White long mane and tail are typical.
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:59 am

Annapurna wrote:I don't know, it probably depends on the circumstances and outcome.

Like, when you sell a foal to have it living with people who want to sit on it's back, for sports, it would not be so problematic. (Obviously inspired by Ben's foal.... :smile: )

So to sell them as a fun object will be OK?

I watched a documentayr abot Haflinger this week, where they were breeding a high class version of this horse, and a good foal is just as expensive as a good car, like 50 000 €.

It's at least much more enviromental gentle, so maybe a good invest. 100 PS for simply just one.

But a think the calf of a cow has another destiny and raising it---it's always exploitation for some species, Ausbeutung, and as such problematic.

You can ride and make sport and have fun with it as well. Cow, rabbit, or here the buffalo

Image

The price is curently by about $ 500,- (two yearly incomes from ricefaming without other side traidings) which is somehow equal to the car for a normal person in Europe or US.

So what are your current thoughts about Ausbeutung (depletion) - better maybe: use or gaining profit (sensual) - of animal in selling them? Better to sell and buy cars?

Of cause it does not go along business with meat, but business with satta (incl.animals) is how ever business with satta. Humans are also mostly just sold other mans fun or what ever use, not only to get the meat from them.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:47 pm

Hanzze, I am aware of the situation of animals, be it for slaughter, as a pest, or as a companion and (sports-) friend.

An animal's existance is a sad one, for more than one reason, and there was a reason why the being was born into a deprived situation and perhaps think of what Buddha said to Angulimala, when he complained about people treating him badly.

That doesn't mean we should abuse and beings, but that we keep in mind, there is a reasion and a purpose for everything that happens to us and others.

No cause without effect.

This is also no lack of compassion, just a lack of passion, at least for me.

I am just a sober realist, who also harbours a few little dreams, still.

I can only change myself.

Not others.

Do you think you can change others....?
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:00 pm

I don't think so, I am just able to abstain to use them as much as possible especial if it is simply for pleasure. Did I change you? :smile: If not, I wasted again some unnessesary energy. :shock: So I better think about it that it was not wasted.

Do I use you when I use you to learn? But I guess I am out of "business in meat" now.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:16 pm

Do you know Pferdeleberkäse (German Pferd = horse), which is indeed made of horse meat, otherwise not widely consumed in the German language area. Popular in Vienna, Austria.

Actually very tasty.

Horse meat was long time a "poor mans food" as it was not taken by others as regard as taboo. A death horse was some (vulture) food for the poor. ( Today its a gourmet food and a run of it from calory conscious and health conscious people. Foal meat is a very tender meat.

Interesting to read: horse meat on wiki especial "Attitude of various cultures"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:22 am

Hanzze wrote:I don't think so, I am just able to abstain to use them as much as possible especial if it is simply for pleasure. Did I change you? :smile: If not, I wasted again some unnessesary energy. :shock: So I better think about it that it was not wasted.

Do I use you when I use you to learn? But I guess I am out of "business in meat" now.


Did I change you?


Not that I know of.

If not, I wasted again some unnessessary energy.


Well, the only effective way to teach someone is to wait until he or she genuinely asks.

Then the hearer is interested and receptive, like an empty cup. Otherwise, we may be *preaching to the choir*, -or to someone who isn't receptive. That indeed would be a waste of time, although well intended....

Do you know the famous Zen story:"The empty cup"?

You can google it, I's rather not link to it here as we are discussing Theravada.

I am sure there is a Theravada equivalent, which I am only not aware of.

:anjali:
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Hanzze wrote:Do you know Pferdeleberkäse (German Pferd = horse), which is indeed made of horse meat, otherwise not widely consumed in the German language area. Popular in Vienna, Austria.

Actually very tasty.

Horse meat was long time a "poor mans food" as it was not taken by others as regard as taboo. A death horse was some (vulture) food for the poor. ( Today its a gourmet food and a run of it from calory conscious and health conscious people. Foal meat is a very tender meat.

Interesting to read: horse meat on wiki especial "Attitude of various cultures"


Na klar kenn ich a Leberkäsweckla...aber net vom Gaul!

I know a Leberkäsweckla, but not from a horse!
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Hanzze » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:47 am

Like to try it?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby Annapurna » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:02 am

Why, do you want to bring some by? ;)
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby theY » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:34 am

Namo Buddharatanaṃ

Hanzze wrote:
marc108 wrote:I have been wondering about the details of no business in meat but can't seem to find any Suttas with details.
Would this include the owner of a restaurant that sells cooked meat dishes, or is it meant specifically for those selling and slaughtering live animals?

Thanks all :)




Business (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human** beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."



That just translate word by word. It isn't a great translation.

Don't have any reason from tipitaka to understand that words like that.

The commentary had written:
177. Sattame vaṇijjāti vāṇijakammāni. Upāsakenāti tisaraṇagatena. Satthavaṇijjāti āvudhabhaṇḍaṃ kāretvā tassa vikkayo. Sattavaṇijjāti manussavikkayo. Maṃsavaṇijjāti sūkaramigādayo posetvā tesaṃ vikkayo. Majjavaṇijjāti yaṃkiñci majjaṃ kāretvā tassa vikkayo. Visavaṇijjāti visaṃ kāretvā tassa vikkayo. Iti sabbampi imaṃ vaṇijjaṃ neva attanā kātuṃ, na pare samādapetvā kāretuṃ vaṭṭati.


Translate:

Comment of 7th sutta :-
vaṇijjā (business)-- plural and non-gender.
Upāsakena (a lay follower)-- person who belive in tisaraṇa (as supporter). Satthavaṇijjā (business in weapons)-- to make any weapon to sell.
Sattavaṇijjā (business in human beings)-- human sell (slave, prostitute).
Maṃsavaṇijjā-- to feed pig, venison, etc., to sell.
Majjavaṇijjā-- to make any foodstuff that effect lose one's senses to sell.
Visavaṇijjā-- to make any poison to sell.
In accordance with that all, should not doing by self, and should not doing by commanding another.

Number 177: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0403 ... ml#para176

The sub-commentary had written:
177-8. Sattame satthavaṇijjāti āvudhabhaṇḍaṃ katvā vā kāretvā vā kataṃ vā paṭilabhitvā tassa vikkayo. Āvudhabhaṇḍaṃ kāretvā tassa vikkayoti idaṃ pana nidassanamattaṃ. Sūkaramigādayo posetvā tesaṃ vikkayoti sūkaramigādayo posetvā tesaṃ maṃsaṃ sampādetvā vikkayo. Ettha ca satthavaṇijjā paroparādhanimittatāya akaraṇīyā vuttā, sattavaṇijjā abhujissabhāvakaraṇato, maṃsavisavaṇijjā vadhahetuto, majjavaṇijjā pamādaṭṭhānato. Aṭṭhamaṃ uttānameva.


Translate:

Comment of 7th sutta:-
Satthavaṇijjā (business in weapons)-- to make, to command to make any weapon, or to take any complete weapon to sell.
Āvudhabhaṇḍaṃ kāretvā tassa vikkayo (make any weapon to sell)-- this comment is only the example.
Sūkaramigādayo posetvā tesaṃ vikkayo (feed pig, venison, etc., to sell)-- feed pig, venison, etc., to make them obese, then sell them.
Majjavaṇijjā-- make any foodstuff that effect lose one's senses to sell.
Visavaṇijjā-- make any poison to sell.
In accordance with that all, forbid doing by self, and forbid doing by commanding another.
Another, the Buddha suggested satthavaṇijjā because it is a suffering cause of another, sattavaṇijjā-- enslaving cause, maṃsavisavaṇijjā-- killing cause, majjavaṇijjā-- careless cause.

Number 177: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0403 ... ml#para171

P.S. What are the correct and best way to write in this explanation--comment style of commentary, case:

comment:

Pali: Ahaṃ buddhaṃ rajāmi.

Translated: I love buddha.


commentary:

Pali: Ahaṃ buddhaṃ rajāmīti rajāmi buddhaladdhiṃ aggācariyaṃ (note:i modify word range to make it easy to understand my question).

Translated:
"I love buddha" love most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
"I love buddha" to love most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
"I love buddha" loveing most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
"I love buddha", love most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
I love buddha, love most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
I love buddha word love most principal teacher of buddhism.
or
"I love buddha" word love most principal teacher of buddhism.


or another way ?
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby cintametta » Sat May 18, 2013 8:07 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:I believe that most people include raising animals for slaughter, slaughtering, butchering, and selling meat as wrong livelihood; it is not necessarily improper to buy meat and cook it for customers, but I think it's definitely one of the less wholesome livelihoods out there.


So do you think that restaurant business which serves cooked meat and vegetables and vegetarian dishes, wrong livelihood? Thanks.
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Re: Right Livelihood, business in meat

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat May 18, 2013 8:38 pm

cintametta wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:I believe that most people include raising animals for slaughter, slaughtering, butchering, and selling meat as wrong livelihood; it is not necessarily improper to buy meat and cook it for customers, but I think it's definitely one of the less wholesome livelihoods out there.


So do you think that restaurant business which serves cooked meat and vegetables and vegetarian dishes, wrong livelihood? Thanks.


See also: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16659
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