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Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nature? - Dhamma Wheel

Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nature?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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fivebells
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Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nature?

Postby fivebells » Sat May 25, 2013 5:20 am

I read that Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Buddhadhasa would often talk about just letting go of the objective realm altogether and just being in the knowing, and that they used to use the phrase “sawang sa-aht sangoup” to speak about the mind's intrinsic nature as empty, lucid, awake and bright. If this is true, I'd be grateful for pointers to some supporting translations of their work.

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cooran
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby cooran » Sat May 25, 2013 5:53 am

Hello fivebells, all,

Quoted from here?:
Being the Knowing
It is also important to extend from the objective realm to the subjective one and to the quality of knowing. Various masters
in Thailand, such as Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Buddhadäsa, and Ajahn Brahmamuni, as well as other leading meditation teachers,
would often talk about letting go of the objective realm altogether and just being the knowing. In Thai, there's an expression, "yoo
gap roo," which literally means" there with the knowing."
It seems that the practice of rigpa deals with something very similar. It includes a specific turning away from the object. We deliberately do not pay much attention to it. Instead we put most of our attention on the nature of the subject. There is an inclining away from the seductive pull of the senses and a focus on, and a nonidentification with, the subject.

Similar to the Thai forest teachings, rigpa is ultimately about emptying out both the subjective and objective realms. The aim
of the practice is subjectless, objectless awareness. The heart rests in rigpa, the quality of open, spacious knowing and there
is the recognition of the mind's own intrinsic nature: it is empty, lucid, awake, and bright. The Thai people love alliterations, and Ajahn Buddhadäsa and Ajahn Chah used to use the phrase II sawang sa-aht sangoup" to speak about this quality.
Sawang means "radiance" or "bright light." Sa-aht means "pure." Sangoup means "peaceful." Sawang sa-aht sangoup: radiance, purity, and peacefulness.

http://archive.org/stream/smallboat00am ... ararch.txt

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Crazy cloud » Sat May 25, 2013 5:55 am

Hi, not sure if this might suit your needs - just started reading myself ...



Have i nice day :)
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness

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Aloka
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Aloka » Sat May 25, 2013 6:49 am


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Mr Man
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 25, 2013 8:14 am

Hi fivebells,
I think it is worth remembering that Ajahn Chah was always just teaching dhamma rather than creating "work". His teaching was about a way of practice rather than about a doctrine.
Last edited by Mr Man on Sat May 25, 2013 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Zenainder
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Zenainder » Sat May 25, 2013 12:04 pm

How does the Theravada tradition understand the concept of Rigpa?
My blog:

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Aloka
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Aloka » Sat May 25, 2013 12:45 pm


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Zenainder
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Zenainder » Sat May 25, 2013 1:15 pm

My blog:

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Aloka
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Aloka » Sat May 25, 2013 1:36 pm


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Zenainder
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Zenainder » Sat May 25, 2013 1:43 pm

My blog:

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Aloka
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Aloka » Sat May 25, 2013 1:54 pm


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reflection
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby reflection » Sat May 25, 2013 4:27 pm

I don't know Thai, and I don't think many here can, so your question could be a bit specific in asking us to provide specific talks without knowing the ways that phrase could be translated.

But it could refer to "the one who knows" which I see in translations Ajahn Chah used as a description of awareness. As Mr Man also said, Ven. Chah seems to talk in terms of practice most of the time and "being the one who knows" is to me like a practice instruction. But some of Ven Chah's talks may seem to contradict each other at the surface. Sometimes it seems more like a meditation instruction and then in other talks it does not. I think he was very skilled in teaching different students, so approached them at different levels. At times trying to inspire, trying to explain practice, and sometimes explaining the nature of things. Even if your phrase does not translate as "the one who knows", it could very well be he was using it on different levels as well.

I don't know much of Buddhadhasa's teachings.

Either way, if you are interested in those two Venerable's teachings, I'd just start reading translations of their talks instead of looking for some on specific topics, or containing specific lines.

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Mr Man
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 25, 2013 5:45 pm

sawang means light (as opposed to darkness). sa-aht means clean & sangoup means peaceful - I imagine it is used to describe the quality of a stilled mind.

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reflection
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby reflection » Sat May 25, 2013 6:03 pm

Thanks! Missed that, I now see it was posted before in a quote. No talks I read spring to mind specifically.

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fivebells
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby fivebells » Sat May 25, 2013 6:16 pm

Cooran: Yes, it's from Small Boat. I left out the citation this time in an attempt at consideration for the people disturbed by my questions about it. I'd like to find support in the writings of Buddhadhasa and Chah specifically, because I'm really interested in the book's attempts to reconcile Mahayana ontologies with early Buddhist practices, but don't entirely trust it.

Aloka: Interesting quote from Ajahn Chah.

reflection: Thanks, googling for "ajahn chah the one who knows" turns up a lot of interesting stuff.

Mr Man: Thanks, my main question is whether they represented these qualities as intrinsic to the nature of mind.

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reflection
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby reflection » Sat May 25, 2013 6:44 pm

Looking up the word "purity" and "radiant" in index of The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah, I could find this:

"Follow 'the one who knows'. Train the mind until it is pure. How pure should you make it? If it's really pure, the mind should be above both good and evil, above even purity" (book 2, p 165)

and more like the phrase:

"As the Buddha taught, 'The mind has no substance, it's not anything.' The mind isnt born belonging to anyone. It doesn't die as anyone's. This mind is free, brilliantly radiant, and unentangled with any problems or issues. The reason problems arise is because the mind is deluded by conditioned things, deluded by this misperception of self. So the Buddha taught to observe this mind. In the beginning, what is there? There is truly nothing there. It doesn't arise with conditiond things, and it doesn't die with them. [..] There is understanding that this is essentially a substance-less state of affairs." (book 2, p 222)

Of course, recommended to read the full talks to see them in context. But I can't find them on the internet and don't feel like typing them fully ;) I found the ebook here for you, if you happen to have a reader: http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 50&ref=deb



And on the off topic ", because I'm really interested in the book's attempts to reconcile Mahayana ontologies with early Buddhist practices, but don't entirely trust it." is assuming these Ajahns teach early Buddhism? ;) If there is such a thing.

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fivebells
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby fivebells » Sat May 25, 2013 7:53 pm

It's true, there is effectively no such thing today.

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Jason
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby Jason » Sat May 25, 2013 9:38 pm

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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fivebells
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby fivebells » Sun May 26, 2013 11:41 pm

Thanks, everyone. This is helpful.

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mikenz66
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Re: Teachings of Ajahns Chan & Buddhadasa:intrinsic mind nat

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 27, 2013 3:27 am



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