Rapture and bliss.

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.
K.Dhamma
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Rapture and bliss.

Postby K.Dhamma » Mon May 27, 2013 11:04 pm

I know that not everyone experiences these in the same way. But does everyone experience rapture prior to bliss? Any suttas or anything that someone can post/link?
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah

fivebells
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby fivebells » Mon May 27, 2013 11:32 pm

I don't know any suttas relating to this, but I know from experience that it's quite possible to go straight to bliss.

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daverupa
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby daverupa » Tue May 28, 2013 12:19 am

Are you asking about piti and sukha? If so, which term is bliss? I am guessing sukha, but are you asking about these two in terms of jhana factors, or perhaps in terms of anapanasati? Or something else?

I guess I'd like you to define your terms.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

K.Dhamma
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby K.Dhamma » Tue May 28, 2013 1:12 am

as far as jhana factors. and yes, piti and sukha. does everyone experience piti in the first jhana or is it possible to go straight into the first (anapanasati)jhana and only experience bliss?
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah

santa100
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby santa100 » Tue May 28, 2013 1:46 am

According to AN 5.28 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ), one'd need to get to the 3rd jhana for piti to drop away and only sukha remains. Also refer to the jhana factors diagram at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%ABti

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Ben
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby Ben » Tue May 28, 2013 1:49 am

According to the ancient literature, both factors must be present for jhana to arise.
Be careful of misdiagnosing an experience as this or that desired state or label. Misdiagnosis is extremely common.
If you don't have access to a teacher or guide to confer with, I would take as my guide the tipitaka, the visuddhimagga and the works of latter-day meditation exponents.
kind regards,

Ben
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reflection
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby reflection » Tue May 28, 2013 2:29 am

When interpreting the advise you will be given here, I think it's good to realize there is a lot of talking past each other because of the many interpretations of jhana and its factors, and translations. As for me, I agree with Ajahn Brahm's explanation of jhana and he states that piti and sukkha are indistinguishable until third jhana. Until that point they occur together as if one.

I also agree with Ben to be careful for misdiagnosis.

:anjali:

rahul3bds
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue May 28, 2013 11:13 am

K.Dhamma wrote:I know that not everyone experiences these in the same way. But does everyone experience rapture prior to bliss? Any suttas or anything that someone can post/link?


Yes, everyone experience rapture prior to bliss.

does everyone experience piti in the first jhana or is it possible to go straight into the first (anapanasati)jhana and only experience bliss?


Yes, everyone experience piti in the first jhana.

No, it is not possible to go straight into the first (anapanasati) jhana and only experience bliss.

rahul3bds
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue May 28, 2013 11:45 am

reflection wrote:I agree with Ajahn Brahm's explanation of jhana and he states that piti and sukkha are indistinguishable until third jhana. Until that point they occur together as if one.


Nope, they are clearly distinguishable.

piti= joy
sukha= satisfaction caused by joy

EDIT: I meant joy (extreme happiness)

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reflection
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Re: Rapture and bliss.

Postby reflection » Tue May 28, 2013 4:22 pm

rahul3bds wrote:
reflection wrote:I agree with Ajahn Brahm's explanation of jhana and he states that piti and sukkha are indistinguishable until third jhana. Until that point they occur together as if one.


Nope, they are clearly distinguishable.

piti= joy
sukha= satisfaction caused by joy

EDIT: I meant joy (extreme happiness)


This is already a good example of different interpretations talking past each other.

I found this part of Ajahn Brahm's book for those interested:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=ptmMsW1 ... hm&f=false


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