A maker of signs (MN 43)

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

phil
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby phil » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:00 am

Hi all

I'm interested in this passage from MN 43. "Lust is a maker of signs, hate is a maker of signs, delusion is a maker of signs."

BB's note: "MA interprets the phrase 'maker of signs' (nimitta-karana) to mean that lust, hate and delusion brand a person as a worldling or a noble one, as lustful, hating or deluded. But it may also mean that these defilements cause the mind to ascribe a false significance to things as being permanent, pleasurable, self, or beautiful."

I have seen Bhikkhu Bodhi accused of adding his own commentaries (or "neo-commentaries" as one person I know put it) and this could be a case here. But I like his interpretation. Our defiled minds plant the defilements in many objects that arise, infecting them in a way so that they will further defile our minds when arising in the future, something like that. Very interesting, I think. There are so many objects that are loaded with "false significance" because of the unskillful ways we have responded to them in the past.

Do you agree with BB's interpretation?

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:17 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:41 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:19 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:27 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:41 am

Thanks Retro!
Phil, you're also welcome to reframe your question should you wish to make an exploration of the Classical perspective.
My apologies for not pointing that out earlier.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Dmytro » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:33 am

Hi Phil,

The commentry of Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi is quite in line with Atthakatha, if one looks a bit deeper:

Tattha vipassanā niccanimittaṃ sukhanimittaṃ attanimittaṃ ugghāṭetīti animittā nāma. Cattāro āruppā rūpanimittassa abhāvena animittā nāma. Maggaphalāni nimittakaraṇānaṃ kilesānaṃ abhāvena animittāni.

Pathikavagga-atthakattha 2.355
Salayatanavagga-Atthakatha 3.99

I hope this fits into 'Classical Theravada' 8-)

See also the thread:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=17871

Metta, Dmytro


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:51 am

Thanks Dmytro
Of course, it fits with the requisites for the Classical forum.
Though, a translation would be nice!!!
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

phil
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby phil » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:10 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:14 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

phil
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby phil » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:20 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:52 am



phil
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby phil » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:51 pm

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:47 am



vitellius
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby vitellius » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:56 am


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:04 pm

- Peter


vitellius
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby vitellius » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:59 pm


User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:30 am

Hi Oleksandr,

Thanks to jhana, one can temporarily suspend the hindrances, this is called "removal by temporary suspension" (vikkhambahana-pahāna).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

Very skilful as it is, it's indeed hardly possible for beginners.

Beginners can use removal by the opposite (tadanga-pahāna). Here one "manually" cultivates another kind of recognition (saññā).
In this case, techniques like contemplation of the 32 parts of the body, or four elements of the body, are recommended.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/asubha.htm

They are quite accessible, and bring immediate results.

The example of Nanda helps to understand another important aspect. One can be careful in directing the gaze in this or that direction, maintaining general balanced and spacious awareness.

Metta, Dmytro


phil
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: A maker of signs (MN 43)

Postby phil » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:16 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)


Return to “Classical Theravāda”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine