Arahants

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Arahants

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
David N. Snyder wrote:I have great respect and admiration for AB, but I didn't think that was a good reason to feel he was an arahant.
Indeed, that was a stupid reason. Such reasoning would make a hobo or a self-mortifying ascetic an arahant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Arahants

Post by tiltbillings »

David N. Snyder wrote: Speculating on who and who wasn't / is an arahant or even noble one is just that; speculation. Ajahn Chah was certainly a great teacher, meditator and did great work for the propagation of Dhamma. However, since I had Ajahn Brahm in my presence last year, I couldn't help but ask him point-blank if he felt Ajahn Chah was an arahant. (I think I have a youtube on the question and answer session.) Ajahn Brahm answered that he knew Ajahn Chah was an arahant when one day Ajahn Chah asked to him to go get something in his kuti. AB went there and was surprised to see how simple he lived, just a mat for sleeping on and virtually no possessions. AB said that Ajahn Chah had so many donors that he could have lived a very wealthy life. I have great respect and admiration for AB, but I didn't think that was a good reason to feel he was an arahant. Ajahn Chah was a monk, so it is expected that he would live like a monk and not have numerous possessions. In my opinion, AB should have mentioned something more along the line of his general demeanor, which of course I am sure was stellar.
Of course it is speculation, and this thread is a bit unwholesome in as much as there is indulgence in such speculation. As for Ven Brahm story, it makes sense in as much as Ven B was living in direct contact with Ajahn Chah, which forms a context for Ven B's story. I imagine that seeing the inside of Ajahn Chah's kuti, it's simplicity and the feeling of it, as a place can provoke feelings as it reflects its owner, brought home all that Ven B thought about Ajahn Chah, but then that is mere speculation on my part and carries as much weight. This person/that person is/is not an arahant? Even if it could be proved, then what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird »

Spot on Tilt. A side from being able to pick said ariyans brains for how to get there oneself, what good does it do you to know whether someone's an arahant or not. You've still got to do the work yourself. There's no short cuts in Dhamma.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Viscid
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Re: Arahants

Post by Viscid »

The best evidence for Chah being an Arahant is:
Once a visitor asked Ajahn Chah if he was an arahant. He said, "I am like a tree in a forest. Birds come to the tree; they sit on its branches and eat its fruit. To the birds the tree may be sweet or sour or whatever. But the tree doesn’t know anything about it. The birds say sweet or they say sour, but from the tree’s point of view, this is just the chattering of birds."
Which is perfect.

Other things to look at are Chah's obvious wisdom, spontaneity and pedagogical creativity. Whatever he was, he was impressive.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a »

BlackBird wrote:Spot on Tilt. A side from being able to pick said ariyans brains for how to get there oneself, what good does it do you to know whether someone's an arahant or not. You've still got to do the work yourself. There's no short cuts in Dhamma.
What good does it do to proclaim that someone is not an arahant, has wrong view, and is a liar, as you have done?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
barcsimalsi
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Re: Arahants

Post by barcsimalsi »

The verifying of an arahant is a great quest to me. It will inspire myself more on the spiritual path as it clears up my doubt of the goal.

Sometimes i felt quite frustrating that not even 1 arahant can be verified among so many generations of practitioners. By referring to the suttas a sotapanna have 7 more life time to end up enlightened while sakadagami will make one last human return to complete the path, in this case the world should have plenty of arahants right now like how caterpillars naturally morphing into butterflies. But unfortunately it turns out the other way.
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cooran
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Re: Arahants

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This is worth reading and thinking about - whether you agree or disagree.
Arahants still exist?
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65

With metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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tiltbillings
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Re: Arahants

Post by tiltbillings »

Arahants. Judging from what we have seen of god-men in Hinduism and some (certainly not all or even a majority of) gurus and masters in other schools of Buddhism, it is probably just as well that arahants remain unknown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird »

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Spot on Tilt. A side from being able to pick said ariyans brains for how to get there oneself, what good does it do you to know whether someone's an arahant or not. You've still got to do the work yourself. There's no short cuts in Dhamma.
What good does it do to proclaim that someone is not an arahant, has wrong view, and is a liar, as you have done?
I don't recall calling anyone a liar - I think you're putting words in my mouth there and I don't think that's very nice of you. But clearly the gloves are off in your instance. ;)

Do you think we should just avoid critical analysis of people's declarations of supernormal attainments? Because (I'm sure you're aware) there's a big difference between being critical of a crystal clear declaration in print that Monk-X is an arahant, and being critical of people who speculate that so and so might or might not be an arahant.

If someone makes the statement: X is an arahant. And we believe the evidence suggests otherwise, do we not have a duty to proclaim that we believe this is untrue? Is it not in everyone's interests to be aware that such a person is at the very least overestimating their teacher, that they gained their material for the book from stories told to them from other monks, from many sources, some 2nd and 3rd hand. Does it not stand to reason that accounts were embellished through the monk-vine?

People deserve to be informed, to have as much knowledge at hand when they make decisions. People might make all sorts of decisions from reading a positive account of a teacher. I certainly know that several years ago a factor in my decision to go to Sri Lanka was made based on the fact that so many of those on a certain retreat I attended felt that the teacher was an ariyan, and I agreed with them.

So what we can draw from my example is that people are willing to go out of their way to learn under those whom they believe to be enlightened.
If you have a good argument otherwise, people should know so they can make the best decisions possible for their meditation and progress in the Dhamma. :)

You have read the book I suppose?There's more magic and flowery goings on in that book than the most elaborate of Mahayana sutras, personally I know that that's not what the Buddha's teaching is concerned with. It's concerned with dukkha and it's cessation.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a »

BlackBird wrote:I don't recall calling anyone a liar - I think you're putting words in my mouth there and I don't think that's very nice of you. But clearly the gloves are off in your instance. ;)
Not nice? You certainly did say that Ajahn Boowa wrote an "embellished and frankly fictitious account." In order to knowingly present such a thing as a biography, that would require lying.
If someone makes the statement: X is an arahant. And we believe the evidence suggests otherwise, do we not have a duty to proclaim that we believe this is untrue?
No, where did you get the idea that it was anyone's "duty"? Even if someone did feel that it was their "duty" to proclaim that so-and-so is not an arahant, would they be so incautious in their assessment as you? I don't think so. You speak as if it was beyond the range of possibility that Ajahn Boowa was an arahant. How did you manage to become such a confident assessor of others attainments? And from a distance, no less. From reading a book.

At least in the case of Ajahn Brahm re: Ajahn Chah - the evidence given which Retro felt compelled to call "stupid" - that was personal exposure to the man. Not armchair analysis from another country on the internet.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Ben
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Re: Arahants

Post by Ben »

Ladies and Gentlemen, please step back from the brink.
Let's keep discussion amicable.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a »

Ben wrote:Ladies and Gentlemen, please step back from the brink.
Let's keep discussion amicable.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Ben
Yes indeed, that should be the case. I do not consider it "amicable" to make feckless statements about some of the most widely esteemed bhikkhus of modern times.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird »

Ben wrote:Ladies and Gentlemen, please step back from the brink.
Let's keep discussion amicable.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Ben
Hi Ben.

No animosity from me.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird »

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I don't recall calling anyone a liar - I think you're putting words in my mouth there and I don't think that's very nice of you. But clearly the gloves are off in your instance. ;)
Not nice? You certainly did say that Ajahn Boowa wrote an "embellished and frankly fictitious account." In order to knowingly present such a thing as a biography, that would require lying.
If someone makes the statement: X is an arahant. And we believe the evidence suggests otherwise, do we not have a duty to proclaim that we believe this is untrue?
No, where did you get the idea that it was anyone's "duty"? Even if someone did feel that it was their "duty" to proclaim that so-and-so is not an arahant, would they be so incautious in their assessment as you? I don't think so. You speak as if it was beyond the range of possibility that Ajahn Boowa was an arahant. How did you manage to become such a confident assessor of others attainments? And from a distance, no less. From reading a book.

At least in the case of Ajahn Brahm re: Ajahn Chah - the evidence given which Retro felt compelled to call "stupid" - that was personal exposure to the man. Not armchair analysis from another country on the internet.
I got the idea quite easily, but I am not holding onto any view to any degree of strength, so if you can show me how Venerable Boowa's teachings are not eternalistic, I would be happy to retract my statement.

There is clear eternalism presented with in the text, that much is very clear - and eternalism has been rejected by the Buddha as a wrong view. Since you have ignored the very clear question as to whether you have read the book, I am under the impression you have not. I am also under this impression as you refuse to present a reasoned and logical counter argument and resort instead to what we see above.

It would seem to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that my statements have angered you, or at least provoked you to a rather unpleasant frame of mine, and my apologies for having done so. I don't wish to put anyone in a bad mood. But it is a fact of life that people will have opinions that differ to your own Kirk. :)

You put me in a difficult spot because I have no interest in attempting to disprove your assertion that I am an arm chair critic from another country on the internet. Absolutely no good could come from taking your 'bait' as it were.

But back to the topic at hand it's safe to say, the text itself is quite divorced in parts from the Dhamma the Buddha taught, there's is little more to be said about the subject, and at risk of provoking you to further unpleasantries, I will end this conversation here.

Well wishes
metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a »

BlackBird wrote:

There is clear eternalism presented with in the text, and since you have ignored the very clear question as to whether you have read the book, I am under the impression you have not, as you refuse to present a reasoned and logical counter argument, and resort instead to what we see above.

You put me in a difficult spot because I have no interest in attempting to disprove your assertion that I am an arm chair critic from another country on the internet.

But it's safe to say, the text itself is quite divorced from the Dhamma the Buddha taught, there's is little more to be said about the subject, and at risk of provoking you to further unpleasantries, I will end this conversation here.

Well wishes
metta
Jack
I have not yet read the entirety of the book in question, but I am familiar with it. Regarding your last argument:
People deserve to be informed, to have as much knowledge at hand when they make decisions. People might make all sorts of decisions from reading a positive account of a teacher. I certainly know that several years ago a factor in my decision to go to Sri Lanka was made based on the fact that so many of those on a certain retreat I attended felt that the teacher was an ariyan, and I agreed with them.

So what we can draw from my example is that people are willing to go out of their way to learn under those whom they believe to be enlightened.
That's a rather weighty responsibility you're apparently taken up. Do you consider it at all possible that your assessment could be wrong? For in that case, and going by your own reasoning, should someone turn away from the teachings of someone who actually was enlightened, based upon your words - have you done that person any favors?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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