How do you contemplate anatta?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
binocular
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by binocular »

Spiny Norman wrote:
pegembara wrote:"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'
Thanks, I'm familiar with the quote, but how do you work with this in practice?
Pretty much anyone who has tried to lose weight is painfully familiar with this.
A bad hair day also offers some hardcore insight into the truth that form is not the self.

:guns:
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
daverupa
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by daverupa »

rowyourboat wrote:"Anatta is not an object of insight. Phenomena are objects of insight (meditation) ie vipassana. Anatta is an insight which arises as a consequence of this practice."
This is well put, indeed, though samatha has a role in "this practice" as well, and I'd hate to see that get missed. It takes a calm mind to generate vipassana, and vice versa.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Spiny Norman
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Spiny Norman wrote: By 6 elements I mean earth, wind, fire, water, space and consciousness - this set is effectively equivalent to the 5 aggregates though much heavier on the materiality end.
See MN112.7, MN115.5, MN140.8 and MN143.10. At MN140.8 it says "This person consists of the 6 elements".
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Spiny Norman
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

binocular wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
pegembara wrote:"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'
Thanks, I'm familiar with the quote, but how do you work with this in practice?
Pretty much anyone who has tried to lose weight is painfully familiar with this.
Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

5heaps wrote: ...for starters, it becomes obvious that the self-identity is an internal story based on the feeling.
I tend to experience it based on the reactions of craving and aversion, liking and not liking.
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binocular
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by binocular »

Spiny Norman wrote:Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
Sure, but probably not on their terms.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

binocular wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
Sure, but probably not on their terms.
Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:"Anatta is not an object of insight. Phenomena are objects of insight (meditation) ie vipassana. Anatta is an insight which arises as a consequence of this practice."
This is well put, indeed, though samatha has a role in "this practice" as well,
Of course
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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IanAnd
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by IanAnd »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: By 6 elements I mean earth, wind, fire, water, space and consciousness - this set is effectively equivalent to the 5 aggregates though much heavier on the materiality end.
See MN112.7, MN115.5, MN140.8 and MN143.10. At MN140.8 it says "This person consists of the 6 elements".

I do also work with the 6 sense bases, specifically in terms of anicca, rise and fall. I don't find the aggregates very "user-friendly", but maybe that's just me.
Thank you for your explanation of the six element. I never would have made that connection had you not pointed it out. However, it remains somewhat of a backasswards approach (IMHO) to insight study in this matter, as it neglects going in from the front door in favor of approaching the problem from the back door. I personally find such indirect approaches time-consuming, time-wasting, and generally inefficient.

It is unfortunate that you find effort at insight into the five aggregates to be not "user-friendly," as this is the most direct route to take. But each to his own. Have fun trying to figure this out with your present approach. I wish you much good fortune.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
binocular
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by binocular »

Spiny Norman wrote:But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control
Us having some control over form does not mean that form is self, though.

That said, us having some control over form seems to be indirect: there are many other things we have to do first before we get to exercise some control over form. Similar goes for the other aggregates.

For example, if one is to change the shape of one's body, this cannot be done directly, in one instantly effective act, but requires a great number of mental, verbal and physical actions over a period of time, along with a number of external factors being suitable toward that purpose.
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reflection
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by reflection »

Spiny Norman wrote:
binocular wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
Sure, but probably not on their terms.
Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
Investigating what this idea is based on may be a good starting point for contemplating anatta.
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kirk5a
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by kirk5a »

reflection wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
Investigating what this idea is based on may be a good starting point for contemplating anatta.
It's the idea that some things are a result of volition. Those are subject to "control." Like typing. Or keeping attention on one's meditation object.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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SDC
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by SDC »

I take anything that is part life - job, car, money, friends, family, co-workers, practice of Buddhism, attitude, the body, the thoughts, the emotions - and look at the fact that, despite seeing these things as mine, or in the very least, firmly (absolutely?) in an intimate realm of my influence, there are conditions which can cause these things to become a discomfort for me; a change in status that is no my choice. Having no choice in the matter shows that "under this condition" it is beyond the ability to control.

So then I ask, "How can something that is able to get out of my control be seen as mine?"
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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reflection
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by reflection »

kirk5a wrote:
reflection wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
Investigating what this idea is based on may be a good starting point for contemplating anatta.
It's the idea that some things are a result of volition. Those are subject to "control." Like typing. Or keeping attention on one's meditation object.
With respect, unless you and Spiny Norman are the same person, I don't think you can say what his idea is. And it doesn't really matter because what I think is that whatever we take as "mine" should be subject to investigation. Here, "we do have some control" seems to me something that is part of this.
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kirk5a
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by kirk5a »

reflection wrote: With respect, unless you and Spiny Norman are the same person, I don't think you can say what his idea is. And it doesn't really matter because what I think is that whatever we take as "mine" should be subject to investigation. Here, "we do have some control" seems to me something that is part of this.
I agree with the principle that Buddhist practice would be impossible if there was utterly no control. The notion doesn't belong to Spiny Norman, I was just giving my take on it. Obviously Spiny can also say whatever he/she likes. The basic fact of volitional activity isn't inherently a matter of holding onto "mine."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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