YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:11 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:02 pm


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:16 pm

What's the difference? Does one way of translating it create a radically different understanding of the sutta than the other way?
- Peter


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:42 pm

Greetings,

This is my favourite sutta on meditation.

Unsurprisingly, it's been discussed a fair bit so far here at Dhamma Wheel...

Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1122

Satipatthana contemplation of a corpse
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1259

Satipatthana sequencing
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484

and a conversation on the related sutta from the Digha Nikaya...

Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:20 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:29 pm

Hi Jechbi

I think that both translations are right and wrong, it is just that the se should be looked at! which whitch is which, to two's too many and all that it is all about the context in which the translation of the breakdown is applied at times and certainly there are times when reference is better suited than foundation in the sutta.

BTW in my signature there is a link to my exploration thanks to Fede I know now there is some work to be done with the wording and grammar, which I am going through trying to correct what I know about, but as the link stands it is fairly understandable if anyone wants to have a read, and please, if you do read it, point out any parts which dont make sence in a PM to me, but not to derail this posting.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:59 pm

Bhikkhu Samahita (hope I spelt his name correctly) posted this on his mailing list a while ago and I posted it on my blog page if any one is interested in doing a years practice doing the different meditations in the satipatthana stta
http://manapa.multiply.com/journal/item ... hana_Sutta


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:44 am


User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:46 am


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:15 am

- Peter


User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:27 am


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:28 pm

Jechbi,

I'm actually not trying to say you are wrong. I honestly don't understand why the fuss over this translation. I don't see why it makes a difference which word we use. I brought it up because I had hoped to have it explained to me.

While I think it is mildly interesting to speculate whether it is patthana or upatthana I still don't see what difference it makes to understanding how to meditate.
- Peter


User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:37 pm

Sorry, Peter. My misunderstanding.

There are others who can explain it to you much better than I can. I'm no teacher. From my personal, limited and flawed experience, however, and with the understanding that different people have different viewpoints regarding what's often labeled "Vipassana Meditation," I would say this: I've heard people ask why there's so much focus on, for example, bodily sensations rather than on memories or emotions or stuff like that. With regard to that narrow, practical question, this subtle difference in meaning might provide some encouragement: When one opens just one "window," as I termed it, one has a glimpse of the entire psychophysical phenomenon. I stand to be corrected, and I welcome insights from others.

No fuss is intended. I just noticed the relatively minor difference in the translations, and then I noticed the note, so I posted them thinking more useful insights might emerge from discussion.

Metta

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:47 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Sher
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:58 am
Location: Southeast Alaska, USA

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:50 pm

Hello All:
I have a practical question regarding this sutta and practice, and it is difficult for me to formulate, but here goes...

Example: A person has just eaten one or two delicious cookies, and he reaches for another, and as he begins to bite into the second cookie he becomes aware that he is craving that cookie. He knows that at that moment he is manifesting an unwholesome craving. I say this, because one or two cookies certainly should have been sufficient. He is aware of the craving, but he keeps eating the cookie. His mindfulness of what he is doing in that moment is just awareness, and it does not translate into a change of action.

Is this the same type of awareness that one experiences in meditation -awareness of mind objects --the five hindrances?

But to change into a wholesome thought or action -- to not take or to put the cookie down requires more than just sati --right?

The sutta seems to suggest that the way to overcoming craving of the cookie would be to contemplate the foulness of the cookie. One could note the cookie will decay and grow mold. Well "note" isn't the right word. One would have to be really see the foulness and impermanence of that cookie, or that attractive object.

Sher

User avatar
Sher
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:58 am
Location: Southeast Alaska, USA

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:56 pm

Foulness

How important is contemplation on foulness--the bodily parts and charnel ground contemplations? Are we doing this in the US or in the West? How are we doing this?

I live in Alaska in the wilderness, and the closest thing I have to a charnel ground is the salmon spawning streams. I have one right beside my house, and in August it will be clogged with dying salmon, but many people in the US don't have this opportunity. How are we doing this type of contemplation in the West in the twenty-first century?

Do you have any examples from your practice?
Thanks, Sher

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:59 pm

Greetings Sher,

The contemplations on foulness aren't really relevant to your cookie example.

With respect to the frames of reference, mindfulness could include.....

Mindfulness of body - the physical movements and posture involved with eating the cookie, biting it, swallowing it etc.

Mindfulness of feeling - the taste of the cookie, the texture of the cookie, the feeling in your mouth, throat or stomach

Mindfulness of mindstates - is the mind dull, craving, depressed etc? whilst eating the cookie

Mindfulness of mind object - observation of each thought as it arises and it's qualitative nature

Consciously choosing to put down the cookie will probably happen if you do the latter of the 4, and you observe, with wisdom, that eating the cookie is not the most wholesome action to perform (because it is rooted in craving and will lead to suffering)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:01 am

To add to retro's reply: On retreats I eat mindfully - pick up the spoon, take some food from the plate, take it to the mouth, put it in, close the mouth, put down the spoon, chew for some time, swallow - repeat. If you do this for a few days - being aware of the intentions, motions, sensations, and thoughts and feelings that arise during the process - it starts to dawn on you what a tedious waste of time the whole eating process is. As retro says, no need to bring foulness into it...

Unfortunately, this doesn't last for me so well outside of retreats...

Mike

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:55 am

Greetings,

And to add to Mike's reply...

There are contemplations to be found on the foulness of food... certainly in the Visuddhimagga, possibly in the suttas (I can't recall from memory... I know there's ones about not delighting in it and the simile of eating the child's flesh whilst crossing the desert is a good one - but I digress)... but satipatthana/vipassana would be more focused on the kind of observations outlined in the two posts above. Reflections on the foulness of food would be "wise reflections" and may have some benefit as a samatha subject (I'd look that up if I had my Visuddhimagga with me to confirm, but I don't, so I won't).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby appicchato » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:03 am

Connected in an around about way the essay by Nyanaponika Thera on the four nutriments is an incredible (for me) way of looking at things...especially the 'four frames of reference'...for those unfamiliar with it, check it out...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html


Return to “Study Group”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine