How do you contemplate anatta?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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reflection
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by reflection »

Ok. Sorry for jumping in as if you were speaking for Spiny Norman. It's food for another discussion that's probably been done before, so I'll leave it at what I've said: I think it's worth investigating the idea behind this control, which will be different for most people. Since the topic asked for personal input, how I would approach it is as I've suggested before.

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SDC
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

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reflection wrote:I think it's worth investigating the idea behind this control, which will be different for most people.
We have "control" when we have the ability to keep things in an acceptable condition or at least the ability to return something to an acceptable condition were something to be altered from its "normal" state. It's only when things go beyond these perimeters that the lack of control becomes evident. Of course it is going to take time to see that this potential for lack of control is present with ALL things.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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reflection
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by reflection »

IanAnd wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: By 6 elements I mean earth, wind, fire, water, space and consciousness - this set is effectively equivalent to the 5 aggregates though much heavier on the materiality end.
See MN112.7, MN115.5, MN140.8 and MN143.10. At MN140.8 it says "This person consists of the 6 elements".

I do also work with the 6 sense bases, specifically in terms of anicca, rise and fall. I don't find the aggregates very "user-friendly", but maybe that's just me.
Thank you for your explanation of the six element. I never would have made that connection had you not pointed it out. However, it remains somewhat of a backasswards approach (IMHO) to insight study in this matter, as it neglects going in from the front door in favor of approaching the problem from the back door. I personally find such indirect approaches time-consuming, time-wasting, and generally inefficient.

It is unfortunate that you find effort at insight into the five aggregates to be not "user-friendly," as this is the most direct route to take. But each to his own. Have fun trying to figure this out with your present approach. I wish you much good fortune.
I'm happy you recognize it's all personal, that's why the Buddha gave different ways to reflect on things. I often use the six senses instead of the aggregates.

Six elements or five aggregates, or six senses, in my view they serve the same purpose. I don't see anything backdoor about one or the other because they are just another way of categorizing things. There is no real thing as an aggregate, they are just descriptions. So there is no reason why this reflectoin would be more direct. Perhaps for individuals, but not in general.

Perhaps also it's useful to say that 'consciousness' (vinnana) is not just the awareness capability, it is sometimes also used to refer to the mind in general, as is the case in the six elements, and as is the case below:
"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Anyway, main advice here for OP: Perhaps six senses is a useful way of contemplating for you. You said you aren't looking for suttas, but here you go anyway:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
If form were self, one could eat as much as one likes and not get fat but since it is not so ........ One could command the body not to get sick or grow old.
Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
We can't will our bodies not to grow old, get sick or die (form). We can't will ourselves to be happy and not feel sad or scared (feeling). We can't will ourselves from thinking bad thoughts (formations). If we see red we can't will what we see to become blue (perceptions). We can't will ourselves to fall asleep. We can't not be there (consciousness).

If we can do all those things, there would be no dukkha and the 4 NT would be rendered invalid. It is because these things are not ours that it is necessary to practice the N8FP. Even the intention to practice is not ours. It is dukkha that drives the intention and coming into contact with the Buddha's teachings that lead to one practising. Everything is just cause and effect.
Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

IanAnd wrote: It is unfortunate that you find effort at insight into the five aggregates to be not "user-friendly," as this is the most direct route to take.
I haven't written off the aggregates, it's probably a case of finding an approach that works. In the meantime I find the 6 sense-base approach to be quite productive. I find the 6-element approach gives a good feel for the transient nature of human existence.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

reflection wrote: Six elements or five aggregates, or six senses, in my view they serve the same purpose.
Yes, there are different ways of analysing experience.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

kirk5a wrote: It's the idea that some things are a result of volition. Those are subject to "control." Like typing. Or keeping attention on one's meditation object.
Yes, that's what I was pointing to, the way in which volition/intention shapes our behaviour.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: We can't will our bodies not to grow old, get sick or die (form). We can't will ourselves to be happy and not feel sad or scared (feeling). We can't will ourselves from thinking bad thoughts (formations). If we see red we can't will what we see to become blue (perceptions). We can't will ourselves to fall asleep. We can't not be there (consciousness).
Sure. But why does the idea of a self depend upon control?
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floating_abu
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by floating_abu »

pegembara wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sure, but some people do manage to lose weight. ;)
If form were self, one could eat as much as one likes and not get fat but since it is not so ........ One could command the body not to get sick or grow old.
Agreed. But I don't find the "lack of control over the aggregates" argument for anatta entirely convincing, because we do have some control - and if we didn't, then Buddhist practice would be impossible.
We can't will our bodies not to grow old, get sick or die (form). We can't will ourselves to be happy and not feel sad or scared (feeling). We can't will ourselves from thinking bad thoughts (formations). If we see red we can't will what we see to become blue (perceptions). We can't will ourselves to fall asleep. We can't not be there (consciousness).

If we can do all those things, there would be no dukkha and the 4 NT would be rendered invalid. It is because these things are not ours that it is necessary to practice the N8FP. Even the intention to practice is not ours. It is dukkha that drives the intention and coming into contact with the Buddha's teachings that lead to one practising. Everything is just cause and effect.
Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Anatta is not inconsistent with karma and will IMO. For example, people have different metabolisms, physical forms (karma). We control how much food we ingest using our hands and mouth to ingest said food (will, control over the physical) etc.

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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by binocular »

Spiny Norman wrote:Sure. But why does the idea of a self depend upon control?
The characteristic of control is inherent to the concept of "self."
An idea of an inert, helpless self generally seems defunct, absurd.

How do we know that, what is the source for these notions?
I can't give any references to the Pali Canon. There are many doctrines on the nature of the self in other religions/philosophies. There also seems to be a natural tendency of people in general to conceive the self in a particular way, notably as being something which has a will, is permanent, and seeks pleasure and knowledge.
It does seem though that the Pali Canon manages to get around the many problems that emerge as we conemplate the various doctrines about the self.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:I contemplate how everything is conditionally present or absent, which eliminates the possibility that my self - of any ideation - is isolated and independent.
Do you use a particular framework for noticing conditionality?
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pegembara
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by pegembara »

Anatta is not inconsistent with karma and will IMO. For example, people have different metabolisms, physical forms (karma). We control how much food we ingest using our hands and mouth to ingest said food (will, control over the physical) etc.

Abu
Of course there are intentions but those intentions aren't ours. "We " control what we eat because of the consequences of overeating. Even if we "choose" to overeat and suffer indigestion, we are actually still slave to our craving for taste. Free will is an illusion as long as we are still trapped in this prison called samsara. A simile would be having a gun held to our head and having to make the right choices. As long as there is dukkha (the gun), there is no freedom.

Another simile-
We are like chess pieces on a chess board. There are rules to follow on that chess board just like the movie The Matrix. It is here that conventions(law of kamma) apply. As long as we think we are that those chess pieces, those rules(conventions) apply. We have no choice but to play by those rules. We don't have to be those chess pieces. Once we realize that we are free.
Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva
when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita
perceives that all five skandhas are empty
and is saved from all suffering and distress.
Oops -sorry for breaking the rules of this thread .... Theravada meditation.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:I contemplate how everything is conditionally present or absent, which eliminates the possibility that my self - of any ideation - is isolated and independent.
Do you use a particular framework for noticing conditionality?
Satipatthana, although no one of the usual four takes precedence. It's a fluid practice.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:I contemplate how everything is conditionally present or absent, which eliminates the possibility that my self - of any ideation - is isolated and independent.
Do you use a particular framework for noticing conditionality?
Satipatthana, although no one of the usual four takes precedence. It's a fluid practice.
Yes, I see. I assume we're talking both on and off the cushion here?
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Re: How do you contemplate anatta?

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Of course there are intentions but those intentions aren't ours.
I'm still not sure what that means. If we practice mindfulness, who is being mindful? And how does one explain Right Effort if no-one is making the effort?
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