Sam Vara wrote:Other examples would be the "vegetarian" who is OK about eating chicken and fish, and will eat meat if refusing it would offend their host, etc. They are indeed "no true vegetarian", regardless of what they call themselves, and if we allow that some things can over-ride self-definitions, then we can try to convince our opponent that the monks in question are "no true Buddhists". It's difficult, however, when rioters and killers are wearing saffron robes and are attempting to justify their actions in terms of accepted Dhamma!
I agree, and this distinction is very relevant.
Vern Stevens wrote:mettafuture wrote:Vern Stevens wrote:However, am I not supposed to look on to the actions of these people with compassion and empathy, recognizing that their actions are arising from their suffering however off course they may be?
Of course not.
I'd like to clarify your answer as perhaps the wording of my question was confusing. Dropping the question form, I'd say that I should have compassion and empathy for the monks involved despite their unskillful actions. Does your response state that I should not?
No it doesn't.
Vern Stevens wrote:The more a philosophy or religion is splintered into factions, the more difficult it is for some people to identify who is "truly" what; the waters get muddied.
Not entirely. To trace the doctrinal source of Christianity, there's the Bible, for Islam there's the Koran, and for Buddhism there's the Tipitaka. And it can be easily shown that The Book of Mormon, The Nation of Islam, and the Mahayana Suttras were all later additions, and are not, technically, canonical sources.
Dan74 wrote:mettafuture wrote:Dan74 wrote:The thing is we often act unskillfully and do not repent because we don't see it as unskillful. I suspect most of these monks, don't blatantly break the precepts but actually perceive themselves as guardians of the Dhamma.
If that's the case, then they are deluded. If that's the case, then they are deluded. Or they're just ignoring the teachings that speak against violence. Or they never took the Dhamma that seriously to begin with.
Kamran wrote:Buddhists have committed a lot of terrorism and other violence as well.
No they haven't.
Kabouterke wrote:Well, of course Buddhism has a violent side.
Where is the violence in the Tipitaka?
People have a violent side, but Buddhism does not.
The religion clearly doesn't call for it, just as it's difficult to justify the Crusades with the Bible.
It's not difficult at all.
"Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death."
-- Leviticus 24:16
Kabouterke wrote:You're kind of asking two questions at once:
1. Does the religion outright call for violence?
2. Has the religion been used for a justification for violence?
We shouldn't confuse these two questions: #1 does not mean that #2 isn't possible.
Hitler used evolution to justify the extermination of the "inferior." Should this used against evolution, or does it have anything to do with the science of evolution theory? Absolutely not. Just because #2 is possible doesn't mean that it can be used against something, unless that something clearly endorses the actions it inspires.
Buddhism is not unique in the fact that it calls for non-violence.
But it is unique in that it doesn't, once, condone any form of violence.
As I said in the post above, most people are aware that the New Testament speaks strongly against violence and presents a strong message of brotherly-love, compassion and acceptance.
"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."
-- 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10