BuddhaSoup wrote:Her comment is interesting in that jhana et al are the practices that the Buddha taught as recorded in the early suttas. Seems to me that her tossing aside Buddhavacana (and substituting Tang Dynasty origins koan practice) has a bit of unhealthy ego involved. Attachment to koan practice might be unskillful. I am always a bit surprised that some in Mahayana have little idea what is the teaching (as best as we can understand it from the early texts), and what is not.
Beautiful Breath wrote:I recently spoke to a Seon nun who suggested that practices like Anapanasati, Jhana and so on can actually exagerate the ego instead of revealing its nature. She recommended practices like Hwadu/Koan in order to directly address the ego.
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kam-attham-anubhoti? Cittaṃ bhāvīyati. Cittaṃ bhāvitaṃ kam-attham-anubhoti? Yo rāgo so pahīyati.
When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.
Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kam-attham-anubhoti? Paññā bhāvīyati. Paññā bhāvitā kam-attham-anubhoti? Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.
When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.
Rāg·upakkiliṭṭhaṃ vā, bhikkhave, cittaṃ na vimuccati, avijj·upakkiliṭṭhā vā paññā na bhāvīyati. Iti kho, bhikkhave, rāga-virāgā cetovimutti, avijjā-virāgā paññāvimuttī.
Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release.
Kim OHara wrote:
That's a bit harsh, IMO.
Surely "the teaching" for the Mahayanists is "the teaching" they received and "the teaching" they find beneficial?
And surely most of them are not "tossing aside" early teachings but simply - humbly - sticking to the teachings they have received?
See also http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1136#p7150 for a wise mahayanist's viewpoint on what is Buddhavacana.
Kim OHara wrote:Surely "the teaching" for the Mahayanists is "the teaching" they received and "the teaching" they find beneficial?
Whatever the truth of that may be, it certainly is not the teaching of the Buddha as found in the Nikayas.
Hwadu and koans; how do they align with satipatthana? How are the hindrances dealt with in these terms? Or, which aspect of the gradual training to these methods embody?
I also wonder about their understanding of anapanasati - maybe it's mistaken, or piecemeal, or taught alongside a pre-existing attitude about it which occluded important aspects.
santa100 wrote:The Anapanasati teaching is everywhere. It's actually in the Ekottara Agama, which Mahayana schools learn and practice just like Theravada does with the Nikayas...
Dan74 wrote:daverupa wrote:Hwadu and koans; how do they align with satipatthana? How are the hindrances dealt with in these terms? Or, which aspect of the gradual training to these methods embody?
These questions can be answered, Dave, but I don't get the impression that you are particularly interested.
In case I am wrong, let me add that doubts borne of ignorance are best cleared by asking respectfully (of a teacher) rather than poured out in public as a slight on a tradition one does not understand.
Hua Tou (types of koans) can be practiced during sitting meditation, after the mind has been calmed through an initial period of breath meditation.
Hsu Yun said of practicing Hua Tou: "The important thing is to stick to Hua Tou at all times, when walking, lying, or standing. From morning to night observing Hua Tou vividly and clearly, until it appears in your mind like the autumn moon reflected limpidly in quiet water. If you practice this way, you can be assured of reaching the state of Enlightenment."
But as a semi-accomplished student, I have not heard of this being a common view in Zen Buddhism or Mahayana.
5heaps wrote:theres nothing buddhist about jhana. all the meditative nonbuddhist traditions do it also--thats how they realize the eternal self etc, through extremely sophisticated concentrations
what makes jhana a buddhist practice is correct analysis ie. right view
Sekha wrote:Since in Theravada it is through insight that ego is dealt with, it seems logical that Zen teachers would in turn recommend the practice of koans to achieve that same aim.
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