Thanks for the information pilgrim. Definitely learned something today .
And Yogurt thank you!
I am aware of the first text you mentioned but was desperately trying to remember that second text throughout the day.
Haha you are awesome!
Mike are you of any particular school/tradition. I always find you well versed and insightful.
Pa Auk In The West
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Re: Pa Auk In The West
Spoilt for choice for meditation centers/teachers here in Yangon - as previously mentioned, Mogok Sayadaw is very popular, as is U Ba Khin, student of Ledi Sayadaw. Haven't set foot in a single yeiktha in the 5 or so months I've been here so can't comment on their techniques or why they haven't/wouldn't catch on in the West. Throw a stone and you'll hit a monastery, yeiktha or local dhamma centre though, so I'm sure there's excellent teachers we'll never hear of.
Re: Pa Auk In The West
Some reasons Pa Auk is less well-known:
1) He is strictly traditional and very dogmatic in his approach, which doesn't catch very well in the west
2) Pa Auk emphasizes only monastic training, and expects people to be Buddhists in the first place with desires to ordain, whereas westerners feel more comfortable with people who welcome other walks of life and do not look down on lay life.
3) When he teaches in the west, he doesn't care about how people organize his retreats (it's laymen's problem so if it's done wrongly not his problem) and he lets them charge HUGE amounts of money for participating to his retreats in the US.
There is though a number of foreigners practicing at the main center, and they are rather privileged there.
1) He is strictly traditional and very dogmatic in his approach, which doesn't catch very well in the west
2) Pa Auk emphasizes only monastic training, and expects people to be Buddhists in the first place with desires to ordain, whereas westerners feel more comfortable with people who welcome other walks of life and do not look down on lay life.
3) When he teaches in the west, he doesn't care about how people organize his retreats (it's laymen's problem so if it's done wrongly not his problem) and he lets them charge HUGE amounts of money for participating to his retreats in the US.
There is though a number of foreigners practicing at the main center, and they are rather privileged there.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli
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- Goofaholix
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Re: Pa Auk In The West
One obvious reason is that he is from a later generation of teachers.
Ajahn Chah, Mahasi, and Goenka centres started appearing in the west in the 70's. Pa Auk started teaching in the 80's and started getting his first western students in the 90's (according to his web site).
Ajahn Chah, Mahasi, and Goenka centres started appearing in the west in the 70's. Pa Auk started teaching in the 80's and started getting his first western students in the 90's (according to his web site).
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Pa Auk In The West
There has been many western monks who have trained with Pa Auk Sayadaw for many years. But they don't appear to establish their own communities. There is not much information on what they do after they leave the monasteries in Myanmar. I know of the Czech monk Ven Dhammadipa who travels extensively to teach. There is an American Ven Subhuti who presently lives in seclusion in Sri Lanka. Some join the Thai Forest monasteries. Perhaps it is the tradition's emphasis on technique and not community, that is a factor.
Re: Pa Auk In The West
There were 2 other Pa-auk centres in the west - one in Green Valley, Sebastopol, USA and the other in Latvia. Googling the Latvia centre does not show any activity since 2012. It appears to be dormant or have ceased altogether.
Now there is an initiative to set up a Pa-auk monastery in Georgia, USA.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30473
Now there is an initiative to set up a Pa-auk monastery in Georgia, USA.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30473
Re: Pa Auk In The West
Pa auk writings have answers to many questions that I have. This is a school that is strong in meditation practice.
Re: Pa Auk In The West
I am one of the few Theravada Buddhist monks you will ever meet who has spent some substantial time (at least a few months, sometimes much longer) in Thai Forest (Ajahn Chah Lineage), Sri Lankan Forest (Mahamevnawa and Galduwa), and Burmese Forest (Pa Auk Sayadaw) monasteries. It's been extremely educational and interesting to compare and contrast the differences seen in these Theravada traditions. Many traditions and customs are the same across these lineages, while some are quite radically different.
I think I can point out a major reason why you see, proportionally, far less Westerners ordaining in non-Thai traditions (such as the Sri Lankan or Burmese). And it's a totally unintuitive reason that only comes out of the woodwork once you actually live with these communities for a good while like I have.
In the Thai Forest Lineage of Ajahn Chah, we (the Westerner monks, anyway) follow the VInaya quite strictly, rigorously studying and following Ajahn Thanissaro's Buddhist Monastic Code, vols. 1 and 2, almost exactly as he wrote it. Those books are a massive, work of genius, by the way, because Ajahn Thanissaro had to read and cross-reference between many, many Vinaya-related texts (as handed down in all the historically Theravada-friendly ethnic Asian cultures), and try to boil this byzantine, tangled mess down into a coherent and well-organized summary (which is still pretty much epic in length) which leaves nothing out (which is noteworthy in the slightest). He usually cites which thing came from which text, which ends up being crucially important to what I'm explaining here.
In traditions like Pa Auk (and Galduwa in Sri Lanka), they have an extremely high regard for the Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries (officially included in the Pali Canon). They believe these Commentaries should be taken very literally, and are effectively equally as authoritative as the Word of the Buddha (in other words, are so authoritative that you are not allowed to question them whatsoever; they are absolutely and literally true).
In the Ajahn Chah tradition, not necessarily so. We (at least the Westerner monks I've talked to) generally tend to view the Commentaries as just a bunch of comments (thus the name "the Commentaries"). Sure, the Commentaries might have been written by arahants, but sometimes they agree with what the Buddha said during his lifetime (in the so-called Early Buddhist Texts, or EBT's), and sometimes they contradict. The Buddha explicitly said that any such contradictions, that might arise after his death, should be investigated (allowing the full range of critical thinking), cross-referenced to the (non-Commentarial) EBT's, and then set aside if they don't "tally up" and agree (even if those contradictions were spoken by well-meaning arahants, as no exception was made by the Buddha for arahants to contradict him after his death, and escape this scrutiny). One such example showing this is from the Mahaparinibbana sutta (DN 16):
The 4 Great Referrals. (Scroll down to Section 28 there).
Note: I can dig up more examples like this, if anyone is interested (where the Buddha said that you should set aside any contradictory statements made by anyone [which would even include arahants] claiming to authoritatively represent him after his death).
So sometimes we in the Ajahn Chah lineage do not follow all the Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries to the (Patimokkha + Suttavibhanga [which is the first layer of Commentary on the Patimokkha]) Vinaya. Whereas the Pa Auk and Galduwa traditions (and possibly others I've never visited) do; they take these Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries (to the Suttavibhanga) to be legally binding, Vinaya-wise, and are therefore confessional offenses to transgress.
So how does this difference in observed Vinaya rules actually play out in the day-to-day life of a Theravada Buddhist monk? Well, there are many small things, but I'd now like to shine a spotlight on the elephant in the room.
I've observed that virtually all Ajahn Chah monks have earned their Independance/freedom from "Nissaya" at the 5-year mark of being a Bhikkhu (or shortly thereafter), such as myself, whereas the majority of Pa Auk/Galduwa monks have not (from what I've personally observed). Most of them (like 90 or 95%) still seem to be Nissaya, even at 10 and 15 years seniority as a monk!! Why is that? Because they strongly believe a stipulation (in the Commentary to the Suttavibhanga), which claims that in order to earn one's release from Nissaya, a Bhikkhu must satisfy the following (referring here to Chapter 2, "Nissaya", page 42, in BMC 1):
To memorize both Patimokkhas, in Pali, word for word (for both Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis) is brutally, brutally difficult! They are each extremely long.
So I think this is a huge benefit of ordaining in the Ajahn Chah lineage: Independance is realistically up for grabs (at about the 5-year mark after Bhikkhu ordination) to virtually all well-behaved, virtuous monks, even if they are not all that good at Pali, and memorizing vast texts which are not in their native language.
I think I can point out a major reason why you see, proportionally, far less Westerners ordaining in non-Thai traditions (such as the Sri Lankan or Burmese). And it's a totally unintuitive reason that only comes out of the woodwork once you actually live with these communities for a good while like I have.
In the Thai Forest Lineage of Ajahn Chah, we (the Westerner monks, anyway) follow the VInaya quite strictly, rigorously studying and following Ajahn Thanissaro's Buddhist Monastic Code, vols. 1 and 2, almost exactly as he wrote it. Those books are a massive, work of genius, by the way, because Ajahn Thanissaro had to read and cross-reference between many, many Vinaya-related texts (as handed down in all the historically Theravada-friendly ethnic Asian cultures), and try to boil this byzantine, tangled mess down into a coherent and well-organized summary (which is still pretty much epic in length) which leaves nothing out (which is noteworthy in the slightest). He usually cites which thing came from which text, which ends up being crucially important to what I'm explaining here.
In traditions like Pa Auk (and Galduwa in Sri Lanka), they have an extremely high regard for the Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries (officially included in the Pali Canon). They believe these Commentaries should be taken very literally, and are effectively equally as authoritative as the Word of the Buddha (in other words, are so authoritative that you are not allowed to question them whatsoever; they are absolutely and literally true).
In the Ajahn Chah tradition, not necessarily so. We (at least the Westerner monks I've talked to) generally tend to view the Commentaries as just a bunch of comments (thus the name "the Commentaries"). Sure, the Commentaries might have been written by arahants, but sometimes they agree with what the Buddha said during his lifetime (in the so-called Early Buddhist Texts, or EBT's), and sometimes they contradict. The Buddha explicitly said that any such contradictions, that might arise after his death, should be investigated (allowing the full range of critical thinking), cross-referenced to the (non-Commentarial) EBT's, and then set aside if they don't "tally up" and agree (even if those contradictions were spoken by well-meaning arahants, as no exception was made by the Buddha for arahants to contradict him after his death, and escape this scrutiny). One such example showing this is from the Mahaparinibbana sutta (DN 16):
The 4 Great Referrals. (Scroll down to Section 28 there).
Note: I can dig up more examples like this, if anyone is interested (where the Buddha said that you should set aside any contradictory statements made by anyone [which would even include arahants] claiming to authoritatively represent him after his death).
So sometimes we in the Ajahn Chah lineage do not follow all the Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries to the (Patimokkha + Suttavibhanga [which is the first layer of Commentary on the Patimokkha]) Vinaya. Whereas the Pa Auk and Galduwa traditions (and possibly others I've never visited) do; they take these Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries (to the Suttavibhanga) to be legally binding, Vinaya-wise, and are therefore confessional offenses to transgress.
So how does this difference in observed Vinaya rules actually play out in the day-to-day life of a Theravada Buddhist monk? Well, there are many small things, but I'd now like to shine a spotlight on the elephant in the room.
I've observed that virtually all Ajahn Chah monks have earned their Independance/freedom from "Nissaya" at the 5-year mark of being a Bhikkhu (or shortly thereafter), such as myself, whereas the majority of Pa Auk/Galduwa monks have not (from what I've personally observed). Most of them (like 90 or 95%) still seem to be Nissaya, even at 10 and 15 years seniority as a monk!! Why is that? Because they strongly believe a stipulation (in the Commentary to the Suttavibhanga), which claims that in order to earn one's release from Nissaya, a Bhikkhu must satisfy the following (referring here to Chapter 2, "Nissaya", page 42, in BMC 1):
* Note on PC 21 (see page 293 of BMC 1): PC 21 defines "learned" in the context of how qualified a Maha-Thera, (20+ vassas) Bhikkhu needs to be, in order to be fit to exhort the Bhikkhunis. The context of that definition of the word "learned" is far, far removed from how "learned" a 5-vassa Bhikkhu should need to be in order to earn his Independance!The Commentary to Mv.I.53, in explaining learned, refers to the definition of the term given by the Commentary to Pc 21*, which says that a learned bhikkhu must have memorized:The Commentary adds that he must also know the rules for such Community transactions as the Patimokkha recitation and the Invitation at the
- Both Patimokkhas (for the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis).
- The Four Bhanavaras—a set of auspicious chants that are still regularly memorized in Sri Lanka as the Maha-parit potha.
- A discourse that is helpful as a guide for sermon-giving. (The Commentary lists as examples the Maha-Rahulovada Sutta (MN 62), the Andhakavinda Sutta (AN 5.114), and the Ambattha Sutta (DN 3).)
- Three kinds of anumodana (rejoicing in the merit of others) chants: for meals; for auspicious merit-making ceremonies, such as blessing a house; and for non-auspicious ceremonies, i.e., any relating to a death.
end of the Rains-residence, and be acquainted with themes for tranquility and insight meditation leading to arahantship.
This definition of learned is not universally accepted, and some traditions have reworked it. As this is another area where different Communities have different interpretations, the wise policy is to adhere to the practice followed in one’s Community, as long as it follows the basic requirements in the Canon, mentioned above.
To memorize both Patimokkhas, in Pali, word for word (for both Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis) is brutally, brutally difficult! They are each extremely long.
So I think this is a huge benefit of ordaining in the Ajahn Chah lineage: Independance is realistically up for grabs (at about the 5-year mark after Bhikkhu ordination) to virtually all well-behaved, virtuous monks, even if they are not all that good at Pali, and memorizing vast texts which are not in their native language.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha
Re: Pa Auk In The West
Thank you Bhante Subharo for this informative post. I'm not sure how the Nissaya status of the Burmese and Sri Lankan monks play out in practice.
On the other hand, I feel that the Thai tradition adds unnecessary rules to the Vinaya such as the use of a cloth to accept items from women, non-touching of food by laity after it is offered, etc.
On the other hand, I feel that the Thai tradition adds unnecessary rules to the Vinaya such as the use of a cloth to accept items from women, non-touching of food by laity after it is offered, etc.
Re: Pa Auk In The West
pilgrim wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:58 am Thank you Bhante Subharo for this informative post. I'm not sure how the Nissaya status of the Burmese and Sri Lankan monks play out in practice. Also it is unclear how extensive this practice is as I know quite a number of non-Burmese Pa-Auk monks who have been released from Nissaya and I am quite certain they have not memorised the Patimokkha.
On the other hand, I feel that the Thai tradition adds unnecessary rules to the Vinaya such as the use of a cloth to accept items from women, non-touching of food by laity after it is offered, etc.
Re: Pa Auk In The West
True. Guilty as charged.pilgrim wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:58 am Thank you Bhante Subharo for this informative post. I'm not sure how the Nissaya status of the Burmese and Sri Lankan monks play out in practice.
On the other hand, I feel that the Thai tradition adds unnecessary rules to the Vinaya such as the use of a cloth to accept items from women, non-touching of food by laity after it is offered, etc.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
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Re: Pa Auk In The West
Did the theras actually state that they were still in nissaya or is this your own inference based upon what you observed? If the latter, what particular observations led to this inference?Subharo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:37 am I've observed that virtually all Ajahn Chah monks have earned their Independance/freedom from "Nissaya" at the 5-year mark of being a Bhikkhu (or shortly thereafter), such as myself, whereas the majority of Pa Auk/Galduwa monks have not (from what I've personally observed). Most of them (like 90 or 95%) still seem to be Nissaya, even at 10 and 15 years seniority as a monk!!
But this stipulation applies only to bhikkhus ordained from five to ten rains who wish to be released from nissaya early, i.e., before they become theras. It doesn't apply to monks of ten rains or more, for whom release from nissaya is automatic, even if they haven't memorised a single gāthā.Subharo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:37 am Why is that? Because they strongly believe a stipulation (in the Commentary to the Suttavibhanga), which claims that in order to earn one's release from Nissaya, a Bhikkhu must satisfy the following (referring here to Chapter 2, "Nissaya", page 42, in BMC 1):
Are you saying that learned Burmese theras in the Pa Auk tradition are not aware of this rather elementary point of Vinaya?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Pa Auk In The West
For what it is worth, I have a personal friend ordained in the Pa-auk tradition who was released from nissaya after 5 vassas. I'm certain he has not memorised the patimokkha. He said he had a "special arrangement" with the preceptor.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:33 amDid the theras actually state that they were still in nissaya or is this your own inference based upon what you observed? If the latter, what particular observations led to this inference?Subharo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:37 am I've observed that virtually all Ajahn Chah monks have earned their Independance/freedom from "Nissaya" at the 5-year mark of being a Bhikkhu (or shortly thereafter), such as myself, whereas the majority of Pa Auk/Galduwa monks have not (from what I've personally observed). Most of them (like 90 or 95%) still seem to be Nissaya, even at 10 and 15 years seniority as a monk!!
Re: Pa Auk In The West
Here is what I observed which you could call proof. At the end of the most recent Rains Retreat at Na Uyana (2017), once the Pavarana was over, and everyone was getting up to leave the Uposatha hall, all of a sudden something unusual and strange (to me) happened. Virtually all the Bhikkhus quickly gathered around, and took Nissaya on one of the head monks (and I can't remember which it was, but it was one of the two most well-known head monks). I quickly asked the nearest friend monk what was happening. He said "we're all taking Nissaya", then he joined them. I stepped back from that flood of monks, as I had my own Independance. In that flood of monks was just about every senior monk who I knew who had 10+ rains.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:33 am Did the theras actually state that they were still in nissaya or is this your own inference based upon what you observed? If the latter, what particular observations led to this inference?
Also, here is a recent quotation from one of their monks (a fully-ordained Bhikkhu, well versed in their Vinaya, including all Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries [and they even have a formal, super rigorous Vinaya exam, before Bhikkhu ordination], but he's not a Thera), whom I will not name to protect his anonymity (when I recently questioned him further on this):
To re-iterate, my Bhikkhu contact claimed that it is widely considered (in Sri Lanka) a form of disrespect to even so much as desire one's Independance.From what I understand of Sri Lanka, the local monks often stay dependent on a teacher for as long as they live, e.g. Migodha Bhante lived in dependence on Ariyadhamma Mahathera until he died. Only foreigners want to be independent and move around (disrespectfully
I've never heard about (or perhaps have forgotten) the auto-release-at-10-years thing before. Thank you, Ajahn. I don't suppose you recall where that was stated?Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:33 amBut this stipulation applies only to bhikkhus ordained from five to ten rains who wish to be released from nissaya early, i.e., before they become theras. It doesn't apply to monks of ten rains or more, for whom release from nissaya is automatic, even if they haven't memorised a single gāthā.Subharo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:37 am Why is that? Because they strongly believe a stipulation (in the Commentary to the Suttavibhanga), which claims that in order to earn one's release from Nissaya, a Bhikkhu must satisfy the following (referring here to Chapter 2, "Nissaya", page 42, in BMC 1):
I shouldn't represent the Pa Auk tradition in light of answering this question. But perhaps there is a Pa Auk monk on this forum who can set the record straight on this matter. Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:33 am Are you saying that learned Burmese theras in the Pa Auk tradition are not aware of this rather elementary point of Vinaya?
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha