MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

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Sher
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Sher »

Foulness

How important is contemplation on foulness--the bodily parts and charnel ground contemplations? Are we doing this in the US or in the West? How are we doing this?

I live in Alaska in the wilderness, and the closest thing I have to a charnel ground is the salmon spawning streams. I have one right beside my house, and in August it will be clogged with dying salmon, but many people in the US don't have this opportunity. How are we doing this type of contemplation in the West in the twenty-first century?

Do you have any examples from your practice?
Thanks, Sher
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retrofuturist
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sher,

The contemplations on foulness aren't really relevant to your cookie example.

With respect to the frames of reference, mindfulness could include.....

Mindfulness of body - the physical movements and posture involved with eating the cookie, biting it, swallowing it etc.

Mindfulness of feeling - the taste of the cookie, the texture of the cookie, the feeling in your mouth, throat or stomach

Mindfulness of mindstates - is the mind dull, craving, depressed etc? whilst eating the cookie

Mindfulness of mind object - observation of each thought as it arises and it's qualitative nature

Consciously choosing to put down the cookie will probably happen if you do the latter of the 4, and you observe, with wisdom, that eating the cookie is not the most wholesome action to perform (because it is rooted in craving and will lead to suffering)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

To add to retro's reply: On retreats I eat mindfully - pick up the spoon, take some food from the plate, take it to the mouth, put it in, close the mouth, put down the spoon, chew for some time, swallow - repeat. If you do this for a few days - being aware of the intentions, motions, sensations, and thoughts and feelings that arise during the process - it starts to dawn on you what a tedious waste of time the whole eating process is. As retro says, no need to bring foulness into it...

Unfortunately, this doesn't last for me so well outside of retreats...

Mike
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

And to add to Mike's reply...

There are contemplations to be found on the foulness of food... certainly in the Visuddhimagga, possibly in the suttas (I can't recall from memory... I know there's ones about not delighting in it and the simile of eating the child's flesh whilst crossing the desert is a good one - but I digress)... but satipatthana/vipassana would be more focused on the kind of observations outlined in the two posts above. Reflections on the foulness of food would be "wise reflections" and may have some benefit as a samatha subject (I'd look that up if I had my Visuddhimagga with me to confirm, but I don't, so I won't).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by appicchato »

Connected in an around about way the essay by Nyanaponika Thera on the four nutriments is an incredible (for me) way of looking at things...especially the 'four frames of reference'...for those unfamiliar with it, check it out...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Just to add to the cookies & retro
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

I have just been reading Western Buddhism and a Theravâda Heterodoxy An Inquiry into a Practice Propagated as Theravâda Buddhism by Dr V. A. Gunasekara and noticed this in regard to the satipatthana sutta
1 - This Sutta should be undertaken by persons "having overcome in this world covetousness and discontent" (vineyya loke abhijjâ domanassa.m). In actual practice many persons seem to look upon the simplified presentation of this Sutta by the meditation teacher as a substitute for overcoming covetousness and other worldly evils. After having done their daily or weekly quota of the "contemplation of the body" they go right back to their old "covetous" ways!
2 - The contemplations in the Sutta can only be done in an empty room (suññâgâra), or if people prefer the outdoors in the forest or at a root of a tree. This rules out communal meditation, a subject to which we shall return again.
3 - (3) No time duration is given and the same fruits are said to be capable of being realised whether the Satip.t.tâna is observed for seven years or seven days.12
I personally think the first and second points are wrong particularly the first the sutta s translated in this thread clearly says
Ekāyano ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya, dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya, ñāyassa adhigamāya, nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā
The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?
which is quite specific the pali he is quoting is from the next passage
Katame cattāro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno3 satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
which has a specific meaning in the context.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

http://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the link I got the pali comparison from but did use Thanisaros translation.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Jechbi »

Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?
On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Jechbi wrote:
Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?
On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.
chears
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
rowyourboat
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

with metta
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10
With Metta

Karuna
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

rowyourboat wrote:One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

with metta
Hi Row,
Craving is in the four noble truths section of the sutta.

mindfulness is non-reactive? that isn't mindfulness but equanimity and/or patience. equanimity may be part of the foundations of mindfulness (setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world, but this could also refer to the third noble truth Letting go) as seeing the references with greed and/or distress wouldn't get us far, but it is not the whole part of mindfulness there is also ardent, alert and being mindful, mindful meaning recollecting our duties (recollecting being another translation of sati).
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

ps Duties being the object of meditation, reflecting on the use of it, and swopping to a more appropriate one if needs be.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
rowyourboat
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive :) But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.

sati leads to samadhi (onepointedness) [see the five spiritual faculties] and that can lead to equanimity [see the the seven factors of enlightenment]

atapi
refers to effort
effort to be mindful, effort leads to mindfulness [see five spiritual faculties]

sampajano, satima
common translation- clearly knowing, clear comprehension
but look at what the suttas say (in short it refers to seeing arising and passing away)
yes we do start with being mindful of the daily duties, but then our mindfulness faculty grows so that we can become aware of distinct movements of our bodies while doing those duties and seeing how they arise, persist and pass away.

Mindful & Alert (satima sampajano). Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our
instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities
in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world [§213]. This is how a monk is
mindful.

And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known
to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. Discernment (vl: perception) is known
to him as it arises, known as it persists, known as it subsides. This
is how a monk is alert. So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is
our instruction to you all.
— SN 47.35

vineyya loke abhijjadomanassan

putting aside craving and aversion/sadness (which is a form of aversion, arising from craving) because the hindrances need to be kept at bay to some degree otherwise we would be lost in thoughts generated by those hindrances, unable to maintain mindfulness. some people here would know how useful developing one-pointedness (samadhi, samatha) is to the development of sati. The same mechanism works there.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
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