MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:17 am

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:29 am

I have just been reading Western Buddhism and a Theravâda Heterodoxy An Inquiry into a Practice Propagated as Theravâda Buddhism by Dr V. A. Gunasekara and noticed this in regard to the satipatthana sutta
1 - This Sutta should be undertaken by persons "having overcome in this world covetousness and discontent" (vineyya loke abhijjâ domanassa.m). In actual practice many persons seem to look upon the simplified presentation of this Sutta by the meditation teacher as a substitute for overcoming covetousness and other worldly evils. After having done their daily or weekly quota of the "contemplation of the body" they go right back to their old "covetous" ways!
2 - The contemplations in the Sutta can only be done in an empty room (suññâgâra), or if people prefer the outdoors in the forest or at a root of a tree. This rules out communal meditation, a subject to which we shall return again.
3 - (3) No time duration is given and the same fruits are said to be capable of being realised whether the Satip.t.tâna is observed for seven years or seven days.12

I personally think the first and second points are wrong particularly the first the sutta s translated in this thread clearly says
Ekāyano ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya, dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya, ñāyassa adhigamāya, nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā
The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

which is quite specific the pali he is quoting is from the next passage
Katame cattāro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno3 satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

which has a specific meaning in the context.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:31 am

http://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel
the link I got the pali comparison from but did use Thanisaros translation.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:19 am

Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?

On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:32 am

Jechbi wrote:
Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?

On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.


chears
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:24 am

Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:35 am

Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:22 am

rowyourboat wrote:One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

with metta


Hi Row,
Craving is in the four noble truths section of the sutta.

mindfulness is non-reactive? that isn't mindfulness but equanimity and/or patience. equanimity may be part of the foundations of mindfulness (setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world, but this could also refer to the third noble truth Letting go) as seeing the references with greed and/or distress wouldn't get us far, but it is not the whole part of mindfulness there is also ardent, alert and being mindful, mindful meaning recollecting our duties (recollecting being another translation of sati).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:27 am

ps Duties being the object of meditation, reflecting on the use of it, and swopping to a more appropriate one if needs be.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:43 am

Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive :) But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.

sati leads to samadhi (onepointedness) [see the five spiritual faculties] and that can lead to equanimity [see the the seven factors of enlightenment]

atapi
refers to effort
effort to be mindful, effort leads to mindfulness [see five spiritual faculties]

sampajano, satima
common translation- clearly knowing, clear comprehension
but look at what the suttas say (in short it refers to seeing arising and passing away)
yes we do start with being mindful of the daily duties, but then our mindfulness faculty grows so that we can become aware of distinct movements of our bodies while doing those duties and seeing how they arise, persist and pass away.

Mindful & Alert (satima sampajano). Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our
instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities
in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world [§213]. This is how a monk is
mindful.

And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known
to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. Discernment (vl: perception) is known
to him as it arises, known as it persists, known as it subsides. This
is how a monk is alert. So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is
our instruction to you all.
— SN 47.35

vineyya loke abhijjadomanassan

putting aside craving and aversion/sadness (which is a form of aversion, arising from craving) because the hindrances need to be kept at bay to some degree otherwise we would be lost in thoughts generated by those hindrances, unable to maintain mindfulness. some people here would know how useful developing one-pointedness (samadhi, samatha) is to the development of sati. The same mechanism works there.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:16 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive :) But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.


OK I still don't see how you are defining mindfulness as non-reactive
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:41 pm

oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:08 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10

Yes, and there is just one pile of dust.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:41 pm

rowyourboat wrote:oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

with metta


where did I say mindfulness is just awareness?
mindfulness is mindfulness it is reactive, the present moment isn't just what we find, it is also the kamma we choose, if we were FSM or some other deity who is far removed from the world we could be aware of what was going on without reacting, but we live in the world and the present moment we experiance we are a part of and the kamma we preform in the moment or to put it another way the choices we make effects the next, even equanimity has this, and feeds back into mindfulness also, it isn't being neutral but a balancing of our mind which is represented in the foundations of mindfulness as setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:57 pm

appicchato wrote:Connected in an around about way the essay by Nyanaponika Thera on the four nutriments is an incredible (for me) way of looking at things...especially the 'four frames of reference'...for those unfamiliar with it, check it out...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html


A very interesting article. I noticed it brings up various points that others have mentioned, and yet also brings in some new ideas--such as food devouring us in addition to us devouring it. I haven't finished it all yet, but thanks for posting this link. Sher
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:29 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. RYB-- I have yet to discover what actually rids one of craving, but I have found that a technique such as cognitive behavior therapy can help many people lessen and overcome cravings, but it is work that requires constant vigliance. So, this method may not be able to root out craving all together... :( We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with.For me, it seems very important to have an understanding of the drawbacks and harmfulness of sensual (non-sexual I mean) pleasures. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level.Right--yes, I remember. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. RYB-- so far I have not found this to be true. Because mindfulness is a being aware of what one is feeling and doing in the present moment, I have found that the mindfulness allows me to know and remember what I am doing (instead of doing and feeling without awareness), but this awareness often does not change the behavior or the intention in any way -- the mindfulness is non-reactive. I watch and do not react in any way. Whereas the actual noting -- this is what is harmful from this behavior --as we studied in another sutta a few weeks back-- I find to be more helpful in actually changing or restraining the behavior. And I hear what you are saying about the Big Guns; I just don't how to respond to that at this time.However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.Yes, perhaps this is what I am alluding to above. p.s. if you write back I might not respond until Sunday or Mo, because tomorrow I am off to a workshop in Oregon. :) Sher

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:57 pm

there is growth and development in the faculty of sati/mindfulness
at an early weak level it is swayed by everything which is going on- one cannot even say that the faculty (indirya) of mindfulness exists here - only the potential of it
at the next level we can be aware of things with out getting caught up in it -some of the time at least- here there is space to look on with wisdom, patience
at even higher levels of it's development it can weaken defilements- I read somewhere that it was equivalent to dropping a drop of water on a hot saucepan at very high levels- maybe it could be said to be one of the 'powers' (bala) here

degrees of development could also be explained in terms of degree of detail detected by sati and/or by duration it can be maintained without dropping it

note that the Buddha calls the four foundations of mindfulness the path to the purification of beings, getting rid of evil states etc so it must be able to do this either via samadhi and/or panna that it generates.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:11 pm

Hi Jeckhbi
Yes, it is a very big pile of dust! Even the Buddha taught 20 different methods just in the satipatthana - his omniscience could not find method to work them all?! But this only shows the complexity of the mind and the variety of characters.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:14 am

what is 'internal' and 'external'

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:15 am

what is further development in satipatthana

§ 29. Analysis. I will teach you the frames of reference, their
development, and the path of practice leading to their development.
Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.
Now, what are the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk
remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of
themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world. These are called the frames of
reference.

And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the
case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination
with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing
away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to
feelings... with regard to the mind... with regard to mental
qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with
regard to mental qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. This is called the development of the frames of reference.
And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of
reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,
right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice
to the development of the frames of reference.
— SN § 28.
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