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Samadhi (best English translation?) - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Samadhi (best English translation?)

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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Sylvester
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:34 am


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Kumara
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Nimitta -- Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:45 am

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mikenz66
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:09 am

Bhante,

I read the accounts of ancient and modern teachers as records based on their experience and/or their students. The Suttas, of course, are the key information that the ancient and modern teachers should be evaluated against. However, to me, they contain few practice details, so I value the reported experience of the ancient and modern practitioners.

Regarding the concentration signs: If I recall correctly, there are concentration signs other than lights mentioned in Visuddhimagga.

:anjali:
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:30 pm


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Dmytro
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:16 pm

Hello,

The narrow, objectified interpretation of 'nimitta' as 'visual image' is later than Visuddhimagga.

Visuddhimagga gives the clear definition of 'nimitta' as 'representation', which is quite in line with the Sutta.
In practice, this representation can have visual, tactile, or other sensory characteristics.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2770


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:46 am


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:07 am


Sylvester
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:18 am


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:50 am


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:56 am

Regarding the Leigh Brasington's term "Visuddhimagga jhana", - evidently it refers not to the Visuddhimagga itself, but rather to the later tradition. Similarly, much of the criticism directed at "commentaries" does not refer to the Commentaries themselves, but rather to the later scholastic interpretations.

Visuddhimagga itself is rather ambivalent on the subject of presence/absence of physical perception in rupa jhanas.

Chapter X:

"17. Of course, these [perceptions of visible objects, perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions of tangible objects] are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first jhana, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors."

However:

"19. In fact it is because they [i.e. sensory phenomena] have not been abandoned already before this that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhana (A. v, 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (M.i,33), and that Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment."

Chapter IV:

98. But when pervading (rapturous) happiness arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation.
99. Now this fivefold happiness, when conceived and matured, perfects the twofold tranquillity, that is, bodily and mental tranquillity. When tranquillity is conceived and matured, it perfects the twofold bliss, that is, bodily and mental bliss. When bliss is conceived and matured, it perfects the threefold concentration, that is, momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration.
Of these, what is intended in this context by happiness is pervading happiness, which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption.

However:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhana there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhana he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body. It is in order to point to this meaning that the words 'he feels bliss with his body' are said.

So, evidently, Visuddhimagga as a text represents a transition stage between the descriptions of jhana in Vimuttimagga and in medieval scholastic texts.
Last edited by Dmytro on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:41 am

Thanks Dmytro. You've raised good points.

I think the explanations presented in the Vsm at paras 98-99 and 175 are a struggle to accomodate one Abhidhammic analysis (Vbh 603) of paṭighasamphassa (being limited to the 5 sense bases), versus another Abhidhammic axiom that the attainments are absent the 5 sense consciousnesses (Kv). The former has interpreted the feeling that one experiences in the kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti pericope in the same way as the dichotomy between kāyikā and cetasikā feelings. Most translators have taken the -ena case form to refer to the vanilla instrumental; however see how Warder discusses the other case relations represented by -ena, specifically when he renders kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti. I think there's something to be said for reading kāyikā as referring to hedonic tone and cetasikā to the affective sequel, as seems to be the intent in SN 36.6.

It boils down to the issue of whether mind-contact is able to experience mind-pain (dukkha) and mental/emotional/affective distress (domanassa) seperately as an option, or if they are invariably bound. I think the "invariably bound" interpretation would mean that sense-restraint would have no value, and neither would yonisomanasikāra work in the face of a subhanimitta or paṭighanimitta. We'll be left with the dreadful conclusion that once an unpleasant dhamma establishes mind-contact and gives rise to mind-pain, nimittaggāhī (one grasps at the nimitta) is inexorable and leads to the activation of paṭighānusaya which is the cause for domanassa. This bifurcation of feelings into the hedonic and the affective is not only found in SN 36.6; in the DN 2 pericope on sense restraint, we get also the conditional statement of how if nimittaggāhī hoti, it gives rise to abhijjhā domanassā not just at the 5 senses, but at the mind-base as well. This nimittaggāhī model is found many times in each Nikāya (except perhaps the SN?).

I wonder how the Vsm might have been written if those passages from the Abhidhamma concerning the 5 sense bases and rūpa (which Hamilton identifies as unfounded in the suttas) were not copied from the Sarvas.

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby frank k » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:28 am

slightly off topic: is samāhita (saŋ+ādahati1) derived from the same word as samādhi [fr. saŋ+ā+dhā]? Also, is the samādahaṃ cittaṃ of anapana 16 steps derived from samādhi? How would I go about finding out the answer myself when I suspect words are related? I've been reading DPR's PED dictionary entries carefully and conjugation tables to no avail for these 3 words.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:04 am

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby duckfiasco » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Ajahn Pasanno referred to "continued attention" during a dhamma talk yesterday.
I think it helps remove some of the willful, strenuous quality that "concentration" has.
I think "concentration" also sounds more black and white: you're concentrated or you're not.
"Continued attention" reminds me of the build-up of momentum in attentiveness that has been more characteristic of my practice at least.

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:04 am

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby nibbuti » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:02 am


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:25 am

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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:35 am


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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:17 am

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Draft ready for feedback -- Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:03 am

Last edited by Kumara on Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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