MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:17 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:29 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:31 am

http://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel
the link I got the pali comparison from but did use Thanisaros translation.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:19 am


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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:32 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:24 am

Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:35 am

Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:22 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:27 am

ps Duties being the object of meditation, reflecting on the use of it, and swopping to a more appropriate one if needs be.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

rowyourboat
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:43 am

Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive :) But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.

sati leads to samadhi (onepointedness) [see the five spiritual faculties] and that can lead to equanimity [see the the seven factors of enlightenment]

atapi
refers to effort
effort to be mindful, effort leads to mindfulness [see five spiritual faculties]

sampajano, satima
common translation- clearly knowing, clear comprehension
but look at what the suttas say (in short it refers to seeing arising and passing away)
yes we do start with being mindful of the daily duties, but then our mindfulness faculty grows so that we can become aware of distinct movements of our bodies while doing those duties and seeing how they arise, persist and pass away.

Mindful & Alert (satima sampajano). Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our
instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities
in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world [§213]. This is how a monk is
mindful.

And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known
to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. Discernment (vl: perception) is known
to him as it arises, known as it persists, known as it subsides. This
is how a monk is alert. So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is
our instruction to you all.
— SN 47.35

vineyya loke abhijjadomanassan

putting aside craving and aversion/sadness (which is a form of aversion, arising from craving) because the hindrances need to be kept at bay to some degree otherwise we would be lost in thoughts generated by those hindrances, unable to maintain mindfulness. some people here would know how useful developing one-pointedness (samadhi, samatha) is to the development of sati. The same mechanism works there.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:16 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:41 pm

oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:08 pm


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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:41 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:57 pm


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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:29 pm


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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:57 pm

there is growth and development in the faculty of sati/mindfulness
at an early weak level it is swayed by everything which is going on- one cannot even say that the faculty (indirya) of mindfulness exists here - only the potential of it
at the next level we can be aware of things with out getting caught up in it -some of the time at least- here there is space to look on with wisdom, patience
at even higher levels of it's development it can weaken defilements- I read somewhere that it was equivalent to dropping a drop of water on a hot saucepan at very high levels- maybe it could be said to be one of the 'powers' (bala) here

degrees of development could also be explained in terms of degree of detail detected by sati and/or by duration it can be maintained without dropping it

note that the Buddha calls the four foundations of mindfulness the path to the purification of beings, getting rid of evil states etc so it must be able to do this either via samadhi and/or panna that it generates.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:11 pm

Hi Jeckhbi
Yes, it is a very big pile of dust! Even the Buddha taught 20 different methods just in the satipatthana - his omniscience could not find method to work them all?! But this only shows the complexity of the mind and the variety of characters.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:14 am

what is 'internal' and 'external'

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18
With Metta

Karuna
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:15 am

what is further development in satipatthana

§ 29. Analysis. I will teach you the frames of reference, their
development, and the path of practice leading to their development.
Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.
Now, what are the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk
remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of
themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world. These are called the frames of
reference.

And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the
case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination
with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing
away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to
feelings... with regard to the mind... with regard to mental
qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with
regard to mental qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. This is called the development of the frames of reference.
And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of
reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,
right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice
to the development of the frames of reference.
— SN § 28.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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