"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:41 am

If this info fell into my hands, I would first try to contact the parties involved for comment before putting it on the interwebs.

Suppose it is a lie or largely inaccurate. How would the monks, the abbot, the laity who have put so much into this monastic community feel? Some people may want to go and practice there but be dissuaded by the negative portrayal. The consequences are heavy. We should be careful with such material.

I agree that there is a value in exposing corruption. All I am saying is that it has to be done very carefully and sensitively to the possible harm.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:15 am

Dan74 wrote:If this info fell into my hands, I would first try to contact the parties involved for comment before putting it on the interwebs.


Suppose it's not one big well written highly imaginative fictitious lie thought up by someone with a high level of knowledge of Na Uyana's operations including a full list of resident monks. Suppose it's true, in which case what good would contacting the 'parties involved' do? Would they not just continue to deny any such wrong doing? They certainly would not admit to being parajika to some western lay person from the opposite side of the globe.

So either way - You're only going to get one answer regardless of whether the monks involved are parajika or not - The answer will be that the author made the whole thing up, and we wind up no closer to any truth in the matter than before.

Do you see my line of reasoning here Dan?

metta
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"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Hickersonia » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:25 am

Supposing that we are qualified to judge, what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter, as the only people who know what is going on there are the monks there. If they are tolerating (or worse, supporting) the commission of parajika offences, let their kamma be their own undoing.

I don't see any way for this to go any further in a productive direction, friends... :thinking:
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby perkele » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:37 am

Hickersonia wrote:Supposing that we are qualified to judge, what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter, as the only people who know what is going on there are the monks there. If they are tolerating (or worse, supporting) the commission of parajika offences, let their kamma be their own undoing.

I don't see any way for this to go any further in a productive direction, friends... :thinking:


I agree.

@Dan: I also do not think it is dangerous to post this.
All it shows is a very common development: Hypocrisy in response to feeling overburdened, feeling overburdened as a result, leading to more hypocrisy... and so on... a recipe for ruin. I do think it has much merit to be able to see this.

If one wants to go there one can still go. It just shows what to be careful about, which traps to avoid falling into: a benchmark for one's own motivation.
I think it should not be seen in any other way.
Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:04 am

Hickersonia wrote:what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter


Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

with metta
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"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:19 am

Hi Jack,
BlackBird wrote:Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

I know very little about the Sri Lankan monastic scene, but this is a reasonably well-known place, isn't it? Doing some googling, I saw that Ajahn Brahm has given at least one talk there.
From a quick scan, there seemed to be two distinct aspect to the book. One aspect is specific criticisms of the particular monastery, which, if true, are clearly unacceptable. The other aspect seemed to be the author's analysis of Pa Auk's teaching, which is a matter of opinion. It seems a strange mixture...

:anjali:
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:39 am

Every person or persons has a mixture of positive or negative traits, if we only focus on the negative we could almost make anyone look bad, does this writer say anything positive about any of the monks in this book, if not then there has to be a strong bias, because I'm sure they have their positive points.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:42 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Every person or persons has a mixture of positive or negative traits, if we only focus on the negative we could almost make anyone look bad, does this writer say anything positive about any of the monks in this book, if not then there has to be a strong bias, because I'm sure they have their positive points.


Parajika is no small crime. I don't know how you can say "if we only focus on the negative..." when faced with very very serious allegations. I think you should read this text, perhaps beyond the one or two pages I suspect you've read.

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Jack,
BlackBird wrote:Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

I know very little about the Sri Lankan monastic scene, but this is a reasonably well-known place, isn't it? Doing some googling, I saw that Ajahn Brahm has given at least one talk there.
From a quick scan, there seemed to be two distinct aspect to the book. One aspect is specific criticisms of the particular monastery, which, if true, are clearly unacceptable. The other aspect seemed to be the author's analysis of Pa Auk's teaching, which is a matter of opinion. It seems a strange mixture...

:anjali:
Mike



Yes I agree, it is a strange mixture. It seems whoever has written this has been really hurt by someone. It almost seems like revenge. It's really hard to make an educated decision on this. But I keep coming back to the fact that it just seems far too detailed, there are far too many details about the monastery itself and the monks involved for it to be all made up - That's what I cannot disregard. It just seems too detailed to be fiction.

But then again perhaps the author just has a really good imagination, and spent enough time at Na Uyana to learn all of the monks names and habits and cliques.

I don't know...
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:45 am

Well what are the crimes, all we've talked about are bad medicine and not meditating.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:53 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Well what are the crimes, all we've talked about are bad medicine and not meditating.


No, that's all you've talked about. The quoted passage which you have selectively read also included allegations of poisoning and deliberate mistreatment of the sick.

If you actually read the text, you would notice there are many allegations of parajika incidents such as deliberate lying of attainments, widespread thievery. Furthermore there is also allegations of wrong and immoral contact with women, sexual contact with other monks. Corruption, misappropriation of donated funds the list goes on and on.

It pays to learn about what it is you're criticising before you decide to criticise it Lyndon.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby pilgrim » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:15 am

I know a few monks who have practised there including at least one Thera. So far, they have good opinions of the place and of Ven Ariyadhamma. I have no reason to think they are lying and they are certainly more credible than a "disclosure" which appears more like an anonymous poison pen letter from a disgruntled employee.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:38 am

pilgrim wrote:I know a few monks who have practised there including at least one Thera. So far, they have good opinions of the place and of Ven Ariyadhamma. I have no reason to think they are lying and they are certainly more credible than a "disclosure" which appears more like an anonymous poison pen letter from a disgruntled employee.


That's a fair cop Pilgrim, I would think no differently in your situation.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:14 am

BlackBird wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Every person or persons has a mixture of positive or negative traits, if we only focus on the negative we could almost make anyone look bad, does this writer say anything positive about any of the monks in this book, if not then there has to be a strong bias, because I'm sure they have their positive points.


Parajika is no small crime. I don't know how you can say "if we only focus on the negative..." when faced with very very serious allegations. I think you should read this text, perhaps beyond the one or two pages I suspect you've read.

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Jack,
BlackBird wrote:Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

I know very little about the Sri Lankan monastic scene, but this is a reasonably well-known place, isn't it? Doing some googling, I saw that Ajahn Brahm has given at least one talk there.
From a quick scan, there seemed to be two distinct aspect to the book. One aspect is specific criticisms of the particular monastery, which, if true, are clearly unacceptable. The other aspect seemed to be the author's analysis of Pa Auk's teaching, which is a matter of opinion. It seems a strange mixture...

:anjali:
Mike



Yes I agree, it is a strange mixture. It seems whoever has written this has been really hurt by someone. It almost seems like revenge. It's really hard to make an educated decision on this. But I keep coming back to the fact that it just seems far too detailed, there are far too many details about the monastery itself and the monks involved for it to be all made up - That's what I cannot disregard. It just seems too detailed to be fiction.

But then again perhaps the author just has a really good imagination, and spent enough time at Na Uyana to learn all of the monks names and habits and cliques.

I don't know...


Jack, it could've well been written by a person who stayed there (in fact, why would anyone with no connection to the place bother?) But it doesn't follow that it is true or accurate.
_/|\_
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:26 am

A couple of questions: Is the book aimed just at the culture within a specific monastery or within the "Pa Auk tradition" as a whole? Isn't Na Uyana a "Ramañña Nikāya" temple where at present they teach "Pa Auk" style meditation rather than part of a Burmese monastic tradition? Is the "Pa Auk tradition" a monastic grouping with it's own monastic culture or is it just a system of meditation?

We do all need to be circumspect when we place our faith in particular institutions. Misconduct should really not come as that much of a surprize - why would it be otherwise?
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby alan » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:58 pm

Sad, but true--all religions attract losers, those emotionally empty, and layabouts. It's even worse in cultures that encourage Monk-worship.
Take off your blinders, friends. We have a real problem here. Buddhism is dying because of people like these.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Hickersonia » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:24 pm

BlackBird wrote:
Hickersonia wrote:what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter


Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

OK. If that is the case, I'd say this is a case of "mission accomplished," then.

I agree that the allegation should be known to potential long-term visitors. I just wasn't sure if you were proposing something more dramatic should be done when we really can't do anything except raise awareness to the possibility that there is chaos going on there.

Thanks you, friend.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:39 pm

alan wrote:Sad, but true--all religions attract losers, those emotionally empty, and layabouts. It's even worse in cultures that encourage Monk-worship.
Take off your blinders, friends. We have a real problem here. Buddhism is dying because of people like these.


I am sure there are corrupt monks and even whole temples, Alan. Here in Australia, the temples I know a little about seem to be doing quite well. As for Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc, what can we do?

About this particular case, I have been around long enough to know that not everything that circulates around can be trusted and I would really hate for people to be unfairly depicted. These stories can spread very quickly and ruin people's lives, if the laity turns away from the temple due to rumours, for instance.

To give some context to my skepticism, just the other week I was visiting a prison here. A middle-aged respectable looking inmate came to the Buddhist service and proceeded to reveal horrific things about a respected Thai monk resident in Melbourne. He knew a lot about him, rolled off many details, but mixed in with the fact, what gradually emerged was nightmarish fantasy. Along with me, there was a Zen monk there who knew the monk in question quite well. Bit by bit it became clear that the inmate was not mentally sound and was likely there for stalking and harassing the poor bhikkhu.
_/|\_
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby alan » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:57 pm

One crazy prisoner does not discredit the thesis.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:04 pm

alan wrote:One crazy prisoner does not discredit the thesis.


Which thesis?
_/|\_
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Postby Crazy cloud » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:34 pm

old saying by Lou Reed - not a buddhist to my knowledge, but then again; it's really up to you and to your own heart - just keep it open!

belive none of what you hear, and half of what you see ..
:heart:

Some really silly monkeybusiness will never ever make me loose my own experience and taste with the truth og these teachings, and there are numerous outstandig ajhans and laypeople, and not the least, all of those living creatures you experiences througout every day and every moment - who you can find all the inspiration you need. How about this; http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17616 - I loved it, and thats buddhisme to me

I remember Ajhan Brahm saying this; let the karma get those bastards .. :tongue:

So let it go! :console:

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your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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