Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by pilgrim »

Undoubtedly, ariyas suffer from physical ailments. But some physical ailments like chemical imbalances or trauma to the brain may also have psychological symptoms. Does that mean ariyas can also suffer from psychological sicknesses?
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well I'm probably not an Arya, but I do have a mental illness,and I think a mental illness is just like any other disability, diabetes, being paralysed in a wheelchair, having heart disease etc etc, They are all something physically wrong with how the body works, I don't see how any of these situations should stop one from reaching or coming close to enlightenment. Of course mentally ill people might be more likely to be deluded into thinking they are enlightened when they are not. But if you read the history books,all kinds of religious saints were mistaken for crazy or had their crazy periods, Ramakrishnan is one I remember reading about. Lots of Tibetan saints did some crazy things. As a mentally Ill person, we have to struggle with people treating us differently; "less than normal" when in reality mentally people actually can and might have abilities normal people do not, especially in their spirituality. So put all your predjudices aside and treat people as equally able to grow, whether they actually do grow or not.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by cooran »

Hello pilgrim,

You may find this article of interest:

Mental Health in Classical Buddhist Psychology
http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-07-75-02-176.pdf

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

cooran wrote:Hello pilgrim,

You may find this article of interest:

Mental Health in Classical Buddhist Psychology
http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-07-75-02-176.pdf

With metta,
Chris
I skimmed your article, cooran, I think the "delusions" the Buddha is focusing on are not the classic delusions of a mentally Ill person, necessarily. But the everday delusions like thinking posessions, money, wealth, fame etc are real and important, obviously the majority of people caught up in these delusions spoken of by the Buddha, are not mentally Ill people, but the "mentally healthy" as defined by societies norms.

In many ways you might have an easier time getting a mentally ill person to recognize the delusions the buddha taught, than a quote unquote "normal" person.
A lot of the mentally Ill people I have met live very simple lives and are not very materialistic, and are basically good hearted; could you say that about "normal' People.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by gavesako »

Interesting reading precisely about this topic:

"Hysteria and the Holy Life"

http://thebahiyablog.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... -life.html

:rolleye:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

pilgrim wrote:Undoubtedly, ariyas suffer from physical ailments. But some physical ailments like chemical imbalances or trauma to the brain may also have psychological symptoms. Does that mean ariyas can also suffer from psychological sicknesses?
"Psychological sicknesses" according to whom, in whose understanding "psychological sickness"?

For some Western psychologists, it's enough that a person is celibate, for example, and those psychologists will consider such a person to be mentally unwell.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Zenainder
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 11:10 am

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Zenainder »

Mental illness from a western theory is neurological and chemically related, however these are conditions and manifestations of ignorance. My wife is studying psychology and we have a super relationship, so we often engage in conversation regarding psychology. She shared with me research regarding serial murderers and they did find a gene and neurological schema that was common, however not everyone with this "disorder" resulted as cold, mass murderer. They did not know exactly why, but admitted upbringing (loving vs unloving) as a potential factor in "activating" this gene. This seems to me to be a shining example of dependent origination.

I do not have all of the research or answers, but after observing and listening to my wife who is afflicted with a mental disorder. I am convinced that it is still conditionary and the missing piece is khamma and desire. We are all addicts, desire keeps us here, we just tend to label mental illness as a complete imbalance of desire and unwholesome objects that are grasped. Much of the mental illnesses have a strong concept of self-preservation, serious identity issues (again self), and drastic unskillful coping mechanisms that are uncommon to how "normal" people cope.

To answer the question, a stream-winner or arahant, are still made of the same mental make-up as we are the only defining difference is they are liberated to the degree of the attainment. So yes, they may have them, however the sense of self and identity is gone, so I seriously doubt it is an affliction that it is for someone who is not on the path.

These are my thoughts, anyways.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Dan74 »

lyndon taylor wrote:Well I'm probably not an Arya, but I do have a mental illness,and I think a mental illness is just like any other disability, diabetes, being paralysed in a wheelchair, having heart disease etc etc, They are all something physically wrong with how the body works, I don't see how any of these situations should stop one from reaching or coming close to enlightenment. Of course mentally ill people might be more likely to be deluded into thinking they are enlightened when they are not. But if you read the history books,all kinds of religious saints were mistaken for crazy or had their crazy periods, Ramakrishnan is one I remember reading about. Lots of Tibetan saints did some crazy things. As a mentally Ill person, we have to struggle with people treating us differently; "less than normal" when in reality mentally people actually can and might have abilities normal people do not, especially in their spirituality. So put all your predjudices aside and treat people as equally able to grow, whether they actually do grow or not.
:goodpost:

My experience is that mental illness can come from different cause. Sometimes it is exclusively physical, sometimes completely psychological, other times a mix of both.

I have come across some amazing practitioners with mental illness. I think there used to be a member here who suffered from bipolar condition and what he shared about coping with it impressed me deeply.

At the end of the day we all have our limitations. As for Ariyas, I don't know, but freedom from suffering seems to include freedom from mental illness, or at least the way it is usually experienced.
_/|\_
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Ben »

binocular wrote: For some Western psychologists, it's enough that a person is celibate, for example, and those psychologists will consider such a person to be mentally unwell.
No that is not correct, binocular.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Bakmoon »

I don't see any particular reason why a mentally ill person couldn't be an Ariya. It doesn't seem to be incompatible with any of the traditional descriptions of an Ariya in the Canon itself, so I would say that yes, it is possible.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

Ben wrote:
binocular wrote: For some Western psychologists, it's enough that a person is celibate, for example, and those psychologists will consider such a person to be mentally unwell.
No that is not correct, binocular.
Yes, it is correct. I knew one such psychologist, and he is not the only one.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

To turn the question on its head somewhat - Would becoming an ariya cure mental disease? Would having a mental disease prevent someone from becoming ariya?

Whilst I don't see the issue addressed in the suttas, my inclination would be to suggest the answer to both of those questions is "no".

I think bakmoon is correct.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

I would hardly think Mental Illness is any more a function of being "ignorant" than being "normal" is a form of ignorance. The Buddha taught that what we consider "normal" is in and of its self a state of delusion, and not realness. To say all Mentally Ill people by nature have a harder time perceiving the true nature of reality, than "normal' people would be a bit ridiculous, as the mentally ill are often more spiritual and open to alternative wisdoms than "normal" people.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

retrofuturist wrote:To turn the question on its head somewhat - Would becoming an ariya cure mental disease? Would having a mental disease prevent someone from becoming ariya?

Whilst I don't see the issue addressed in the suttas, my inclination would be to suggest the answer to both of those questions is "no".
It depends on what one thinks a "mental disease" is.

I would actually answer Yes to your questions, because I think that that which is ordinarily called "mental illness" is a blatant form of unskillful action, esp. unskillful mental action.

But in modern psychology, there is a tendency to stretch the meaning of the term "mental illness" to encompass larger and larger areas of human behavior and experience. Each new edition of the DSM lists more things as pathological, and more and more people thus fall into the category of mentally ill. What the official psychology says does have an influence on what people in general think counts as "mental illness".

This is where modern psychology and Buddhism may be at odds. The same thing that may be considered unskillful from a traditional Buddhist perspective, may be considered healthy from the perspective of modern psychology, and vice versa.

I'm sure that many a modern psychotherapist, if they somehow knew what "samvega" is, would qualify it as a "disorder" that ought to be treated with medication.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Ben »

binocular wrote:
Ben wrote:
binocular wrote: For some Western psychologists, it's enough that a person is celibate, for example, and those psychologists will consider such a person to be mentally unwell.
No that is not correct, binocular.
Yes, it is correct. I knew one such psychologist, and he is not the only one.
With respect, binocular, I do not believe it.
Either the 'psychologist' in question is not qualified, or there is far more to the diagnosis that has not been disclosed.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Post Reply