Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

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binocular
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

Ben wrote:With respect, binocular, I do not believe it.
Either the 'psychologist' in question is not qualified, or there is far more to the diagnosis that has not been disclosed.
Per Western standards, sex is generally considered a need, something non-negotiable, like the need for breathing or eating. See Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the whole idea of how first the lower needs must be satisfied before the person can move up the hierarchy of needs, and the idea that this hierarchy represents what normal humans are like.
In their view, not satisfying a need leads to a state of being unwell.
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Ben
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Ben »

binocular wrote:
Ben wrote:With respect, binocular, I do not believe it.
Either the 'psychologist' in question is not qualified, or there is far more to the diagnosis that has not been disclosed.
Per Western standards, sex is generally considered a need, something non-negotiable, like the need for breathing or eating. See Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the whole idea of how first the lower needs must be satisfied before the person can move up the hierarchy of needs, and the idea that this hierarchy represents what normal humans are like.
In their view, not satisfying a need leads to a state of being unwell.
As I said earlier, binocular, I don't believe it. Not unless you can provide some evidence that a diagnosis of mental disorder has been arrived at on the sole basis of someone being celibate, and that diagnosis being made by a professional psychologist.
Anyway, this is a side issue to the main discussion and I do not wish to see this thread meander any further off topic.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

lyndon taylor wrote:I would hardly think Mental Illness is any more a function of being "ignorant" than being "normal" is a form of ignorance. The Buddha taught that what we consider "normal" is in and of its self a state of delusion, and not realness. To say all Mentally Ill people by nature have a harder time perceiving the true nature of reality, than "normal' people would be a bit ridiculous, as the mentally ill are often more spiritual and open to alternative wisdoms than "normal" people.
it seems binocular did not read this, how is being depressed because of imbalances in brain chemistry cause by "unskillfull action", and how could a person that has some depression be unable to progress on a spiritual path, i guess a crippled person is in a wheelchair for "unskillful action" ie not using his legs to walk.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ben
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Ben »

Hi Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote: it seems binocular did not read this, how is being depressed because of imbalances in brain chemistry cause by "unskillfull action", and how could a person that has some depression be unable to progress on a spiritual path, i guess a crippled person is in a wheelchair for "unskillful action" ie not using his legs to walk.
I actually know quite a few people with chronic major depression who have made great strides on the path.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Ben wrote:Hi Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote: it seems binocular did not read this, how is being depressed because of imbalances in brain chemistry cause by "unskillfull action", and how could a person that has some depression be unable to progress on a spiritual path, i guess a crippled person is in a wheelchair for "unskillful action" ie not using his legs to walk.
I actually know quite a few people with chronic major depression who have made great strides on the path.
kind regards,

Ben
Also what about mentally ill people like myself who are 99% normal when stabilized on their medication??

ps Driving a new BMW and living in a million dollar house is caused by "unskillfull action" IMHO

Unskillfull action is mistakes that someone consciously makes, most mentally Ill people have no responsibility for their Illness, so if there is any unskillfull action it is unskillfull action by chemicals in their brain they have no control of.

Me, personally I took some really bad drugs that triggered my illness so perhaps I am in a sense I am in a minority of people who's mental illness may have been originally caused by the unskillfull action of using drugs, but many many mentally Ill people are ill through no explainable, possible, fault of their own.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Dan74
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Dan74 »

This thread is probably not going to be particularly helpful to anyone, so I am not sure what an appropriate contribution would be.

On the one hand, the last thing people who suffer from mental illness need is further stigma. Clearly many of them practice and practice well. Another example (in addition to the one I mentioned above) that comes to mind is Pema Chodron, who for a long time suffered from debilitating chronic fatigue syndrome. Taigu, of the Treeleaf, recently admitted battling depression, and Lou Nordstrom is another case (both in Zen).

On the other hand, becoming an Ariya does follow from many causes and conditions and I although according to the current understanding mental illness may sometimes be of purely physiological origin, just like mental disability, I don't see either one as compatible with complete liberation. Can an arahat be depressed? Bipolar? What happens to freedom from delusion then? Perhaps in case of an arahat if the physical causes persist, he/she would discern them and not be deceived?

And perhaps even physical causes can be overcome in the course of practice? I don't know. I've certainly heard many amazing anecdotes and I seemed to have cured myself from colds several times during periods of intensive meditation. So who knows? :shrug:
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

The point I am making is just like normal people tend to be totally deluded by samsara, mentally ill people can sometimes, maybe rarely have, an extra degree of insight into something that a normal person would not, as an example here is a historical fiction I wrote of the Buddha's enlightenment, at a time when I was clearly manic, not quite psychotic,(I haven't got this "sick" since I wrote this over two years ago) I actually had the idea I was channeling the Buddha, its fanciful, made up, but has just a little bit of a magic element that maybe a "normal person" could never come up with. I know I could not write it in the more normal state I am in now. I'm doing this to point out that mental illness is not only a liability, it also can give one some awareness that is not common. I'm interested if anyone appreciates this, if not, my apologies for wasting screen space!!!!


THE BUDDHA'S ENLIGHTENMENT Historical fiction by john

preface; before enlightenment the buddha lived for several years in the jungle with tigers and was practically starving eating nuts berries and fruit, i guess. he was not interested in getting rid of his own suffering but reaching enlightenment or a state or true being.

Torturously sitting 24/7 under a tree for three months meditating 23/7 so to speak, the soon to be buddha experienced a brilliant thought, if we fed everyone, nobody would starve, if we healed everyone no one would be sick, if we clothed everyone no one would be naked(except by choice), if we housed everyone no one would be homeless, if we educated everyone no one would be as ignorant as without an education, if we could end war, no one would die or suffer the ravages of war, if we had a fair political system, the rich brahma would be equal to the poor low caste people,if we could eliminate or tame delusion, people would suffer less,

then after meditating on this for a month or two(historical fiction here) the buddha thought how can i explain to people something so complicated and how could it possibly be accomplished. these are all true worthy things but what do they have in common, then voila, that mighty aha moment when the buddha realized all bad things are a form of, or cause of, suffering, suffering is the one thing they can all have in common, another week or two and he'd got it down,1. suffering is a bad thing and needs to be gotten rid of,2. all suffering is caused by something, 3 If we can get rid of the individual things that cause suffering, then 4 obviously with the causes gone that particular form of suffering has been eliminated.

in a start the buddha rose up, he didn't jump as his legs were cramped, his worshipers had considered him a god for his stillness, he was the ultimate meditator like a statue, they were alarmed and thought something had gone wrong with the buddha, and he seemed ravenously hungry, and enjoyed expensive gourmet dinners people offered him, he didn't speak, just put his finger to his lips and said sheh, his very lazy habits of not meditating hours on end like before weren't impressing any one, he'd walk in circles and around the parks smiling and bowing at people,

his worshipers had lost interest in him as he no longer was the somber meditator; he seemed elated, five or six devout followers stuck with him, though, sometimes following him around the town, then one day as they sit cross legged under a tree, the buddha spoke slowly, "hey guys your not going to believe this!!! i think i've got it figured out, the answer to everything and all our problems, no joke. listen to this and tell me if it makes sense;

and then preached to them the four noble truths, i'll stop this semi fiction account right here as the rest of the story was recorded 2500 years ago in a place known as bhodigaya, india, its the buddha's first sermon in the deer park, where he teaches his formula for success, the four noble truths; its in the buddha's Dhammapada scripture, maybe a gracious reader could reccomend the good translations, sincerely Lyndon John Taylor Mar.2011
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
binocular
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

lyndon taylor wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:I would hardly think Mental Illness is any more a function of being "ignorant" than being "normal" is a form of ignorance. The Buddha taught that what we consider "normal" is in and of its self a state of delusion, and not realness. To say all Mentally Ill people by nature have a harder time perceiving the true nature of reality, than "normal' people would be a bit ridiculous, as the mentally ill are often more spiritual and open to alternative wisdoms than "normal" people.
it seems binocular did not read this, how is being depressed because of imbalances in brain chemistry cause by "unskillfull action", and how could a person that has some depression be unable to progress on a spiritual path, i guess a crippled person is in a wheelchair for "unskillful action" ie not using his legs to walk.
Like I already said, it depends on what understanding of "mental illness/disease/sickness" one works with.

Seeing mental illness as something that "just happens to one", is one way of seeing it. It's very common to see it that way.

Another way of seeing it is in terms of the mental illness being a consequence or an expression of how one thinks, talks and acts. This is a very proactive and empowering approach, as it suggests that changing one's thoughts, words and acts will change whether one will express oneself as mentally ill or not.
(For an example of this approach, see Cheri Huber's book on depression.)

and how could a person that has some depression be unable to progress on a spiritual path
The question I replied to with Yes was this:
Would having a mental disease prevent someone from becoming ariya?
Obviously, in the case that one is in a closed ward at a mental institution, drugged up every day, this is not likely conducive to making progress on the path to becoming an ariya.
Different mental illnesses, at differing levels of severity, may have a different effect on whether one progresses on the path or not and how.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Mentall Illness covers a huge range of a lot of totally different conditions, many of which can be completely cured or put in remission by proper medication and/or therapy. To lump together this whole range of individuals and say they cannot become an arya, seems rather harsh. What about enlightened monks that suffer from depression, or in old age dementia.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by alan »

How many enlightened Monks have ever suffered from depression?
Answer: None.
binocular
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

lyndon taylor wrote:The point I am making is just like normal people tend to be totally deluded by samsara, mentally ill people can sometimes, maybe rarely have, an extra degree of insight into something that a normal person would not
Sure, but it seems that they cannot handle those insights.

I think that people who are generally considered "mentally ill" are often actually people who are by nature more sensitive to spiritual topics, but who didn't have the good fortune to be able to cultivate and educate that sensitivity, hence they appear "mentally ill."
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Unless you actually had experienced mental illness, I don't think you could possibly speak with any authority about it, I'm sure you would be quite surprised by how many enlightened individuals have diagnoseable "mental illness'" , Albert Schweitzer wrote a book where he proposed that if Jesus lived today he would be hospitalized as mentally ill, I think the same could be said for the Buddha. Tell almost any psychiatrist that you remember 100s of previous lifetimes, and have escaped all pain and suffering, and he'll put you on medication. Its not as simple as you think, every mental illness is different, and every mentally ill person is different, For someone to lump all the mentally ill together and say they are by nature defective compared to ?????, is just plain bigoted and predjudiced. Im sorry, I promised the moderators not to get into any arguements, but this topic is worth breaking the rules for.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
binocular
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by binocular »

Dan74 wrote:This thread is probably not going to be particularly helpful to anyone, so I am not sure what an appropriate contribution would be.
Agreed.
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by lyndon taylor »

binocular wrote:
Dan74 wrote:This thread is probably not going to be particularly helpful to anyone, so I am not sure what an appropriate contribution would be.
Agreed.
Actually you're dead wrong, this thread could be a lot of benefit to the many mentally ill readers of this forum, which must be 10% or more of our members, imagine how they must feel to hear people tell them they are the cause of their illness, and because of their bad choices and faulty thinking patterns, they can never reach enlightenment. Sometimes when you're not knowledgable on a topic, its better not to say anything.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Can an Ariya suffer from mental disease?

Post by Coyote »

Maybe it would help to clarify what is meant by mental illness. It is not one thing and to lump all mental illness into the same category is a mistake.

Ajahn Thanissaro mentions that one of his teachers had a stroke near the end of his life, and was able to discern that his brain was sending him faulty signals due to the mindfulness he had acquired. I imagine it would be the same with some types of mental illness for an ariya. The disease is there, but it is unable to affect the person to the extent that they have wrong view or suffer (if arahant).
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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