the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:49 am

I've been a vegetarian most of my life, and was raised strict vegetarian, I eat plenty of Dairy, grains, and vegetables, B12 is really only a big problem for vegans, its in dairy, but I do take multivitamins, just to be safe. thanks for your consideration
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mojo » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:57 am

Mojo wrote:I'm considering moving from an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet to a vegan one. I'm going to discuss it wit my doctor at my next physical.


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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:25 pm

Image
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:35 pm

This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:26 pm

clw_uk wrote:This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?


If it becomes a consumer reality it will be a step forward ethically. It would likely still be a health issue.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:01 pm

clw_uk wrote:This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?


Hi Craig,

By lab-grown meat, I assume you are referring to the animal tissue that was artificially synthesized and then widely reported in the media a few weeks back? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23576143)
The key questions for me is whether the tissue was sentient and if sentient, whether the act of eating killed the being/s.
My understanding of the production of the meat is that individual muscle cells are grown in a growth media - similar in the way that Quorn is manufactured. Does lab-grown meat possess sentience? I think it highly unlikely. Does one kill the meat when eating it? I think it is most likely that the life-cycle of the lab-grown tissue would have ceased long before it reaches the supermarket. In my humble opinion, I would rate it as kammically 'active' as purchasing and eating Quorn.

I agree with Jhana4 in that it is less of an ethical issue than it is a health issue.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:58 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm



I've always found it difficult to understand why humans have ever imagined that other living beings don't feel shock and pain when they're boiled alive, killed in slaughterhouses, skinned alive, caught in traps, hunted, experimented on etc etc.

.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 pm

For regular people, I would imagine it would be related to rationalization making so that they could continue to do what they like to do and not feel like they are doing something wrong.

For scientists, they have a demand to think things through more thoroughly. Just because an animal looks the way people do when they have emotion X, doesn't mean the animal actually has emotion X. A good example is dolphins. They look like they are happy and smiling, but that is just the natural resting shape of their snouts and face. House cats may seem affectionate by rubbing on people's ankles, but cats have scent glands in their cheeks and will rub on thing to also mark their territory.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:10 pm

Jhana4 wrote:For regular people, I would imagine it would be related to rationalization making so that they could continue to do what they like to do and not feel like they are doing something wrong.

For scientists, they have a demand to think things through more thoroughly.


It doesn't take much rationalization or thinking things through to understand that animals feels pain, if one has ever heard them screaming in agony.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:21 pm

Ben wrote:
clw_uk wrote:This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?


Hi Craig,

By lab-grown meat, I assume you are referring to the animal tissue that was artificially synthesized and then widely reported in the media a few weeks back? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23576143)
The key questions for me is whether the tissue was sentient and if sentient, whether the act of eating killed the being/s.
My understanding of the production of the meat is that individual muscle cells are grown in a growth media - similar in the way that Quorn is manufactured. Does lab-grown meat possess sentience? I think it highly unlikely. Does one kill the meat when eating it? I think it is most likely that the life-cycle of the lab-grown tissue would have ceased long before it reaches the supermarket. In my humble opinion, I would rate it as kammically 'active' as purchasing and eating Quorn.

I agree with Jhana4 in that it is less of an ethical issue than it is a health issue.
kind regards,

Ben



Yes that is what I was referring to

If this could be brought to mass production, would the vegetarians here eat it?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:38 pm

clw_uk wrote:If this could be brought to mass production, would the vegetarians here eat it?


Speaking just for myself, no. I wouldn't have any problem with it ethically, but personally just don't care for the taste of meat any more. I haven't knowingly or intentionally ate meat in 29 years and I feel much better, healthier and don't miss the taste. There are some Chinese vegetarian dishes that look just like meat, taste very similar (gluten-based creative recipes) to it, even have similar texture and I don't care for those either, even though there is nothing wrong with it ethically since there are no animals or even animal products in it.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:49 pm

I don't think I'd want to eat lab grown meat. I'd rather have smoked tofu with almonds and sesame seeds.


:)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:03 pm

clw_uk wrote:If this could be brought to mass production, would the vegetarians here eat it?


I would hope that vegetarians would be able to remain clear-headed about the ethical distinction between the treatment of animals and a given amino acid profile on a protein.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:22 pm

daverupa wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If this could be brought to mass production, would the vegetarians here eat it?


I would hope that vegetarians would be able to remain clear-headed about the ethical distinction between the treatment of animals and a given amino acid profile on a protein.



"I would hope that carnists would be able to remain clear-headed" to remember that there still might be health issues, still might be environmental issues, there still might be ethical issues in a hungry world with using more nutrition to make lab meat than the nutrition that is produced and "I would hope that carnists would be able to remain clear-headed" to observe that host animals would need to be kept in captivity to involuntarily have host cells removed from them( possible ethical issues).
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:50 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Speaking just for myself, no. I wouldn't have any problem with it ethically, but personally just don't care for the taste of meat any more. I haven't knowingly or intentionally ate meat in 29 years and I feel much better, healthier and don't miss the taste.


You don't have meat cravings? That is great. I tried to be vegetarian, but I was dreaming about KFC (or salty pork lard) too much. And when I do it, I eat about 5-8 legs at a time... yummie!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:02 pm

Image

(Colonel Sanders at the Pearly Gates, saying "uh oh" at the sight of the chicken figures guarding the gates.)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:37 pm

clw_uk wrote:If this could be brought to mass production, would the vegetarians here eat it?


No doubt some vegetarians will, Craig. Especially those whose primary motivation is ethical.
My motivation for adopting a vegan diet recently was to the shock and horror of some other vegans not entirely predicated on the welfare of others. While veganism is consistent with my own ethics regarding harm to other creatures and damage to the environment, the kicker for me was the incontrovertible and overwhelming evidence that by adopting a plant-based wholefoods diet one could either eliminate or greatly attenuate the leading causes of premature death.

The following short video relates to a recent suggestion published in a peer reviewed medical journal of providing statins with fast-food meals to neutralize the risk of stroke, heart attack and death of consuming those meals.
kind regards,

Ben

"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ajatashatru » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:15 am



I heard from my old Vaishnava grandmother that the worst kind of violence (himsa) one can do is when you boil another being alive.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:23 am

Alex123 wrote:You don't have meat cravings?


Have you tried quorn? It's a very satisfying alternative... ;)
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