How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote:
(Yet, to listen to orthodox Theravada speak on this issue, one gets the impression that one has to have totally eliminated self-view from their beingness in order to be considered a stream entrant. Obviously, I don't buy into that view.)
Actually, that is true, suttas also confirm this, that a sotapanna can't have a kind of self-view, either gross or subtle. He totally eradicated that.
So if the suttas confirm this, what is the basis for the non-orthodox view? And what exactly is the non-orthodox view? Is the non-orthodox interpretation that self-view is weakened but not eliminated?

And practically speaking, how would one recognise somebody with:
(i) no self-view;
(ii) weakened self-view?
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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom »

Can't answer about "orthodox or not", but concerning this:
And practically speaking, how would one recognise somebody with:
(i) no self-view;
(ii) weakened self-view?
- this is a difficult question, because many people do not speak about their self-views, simply because they just don't have them formulated, "vebalized" (because usually there is just no need for that). But they still have them, ofc. And if you will speak with them about this particular matter, you may hear them say - "Yes, I think that I'm this, I'm that, I'm my body, I'm my will, I'm my consciousness" and so on. If we are speaking about determining this in yourself by yourself, this is also aint easy to detect for 100%, simply because you may remove superficial clinging to such views, but the root will still be intact (in suttas this root is called "anusaya", underlying tendency). So you can't be sure, if in your next life you will never have such self-views - even if in this life you see them absent. I think only Buddha or arahants with supernatural powers could confirm if one really has got rid of self-view roots, ect. (and some suttas, for example, AN 10.75, confirm this). And, probably, that is why to detect if you are really a stream-enterer, The Buddha gave Dhamma Mirror (which constists of 4, expanded to 6 factors). You check if they are on place (for, presumably, quite a long time like many years or even whole lifetime) and so, as it says, one "can declare about himself - I've finished with hell, animal realm... [so on]". Interesting to note, that there is no such thing in Dhamma Mirror like "seeing absence of fetters". Of course, they will be absent if you've got a fruit of stream-entry, but this is not that very criterion for you to check if you really are.
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

How is there conceit without a sense of self?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom »

How is there conceit without a sense of self?
There is no conceit without a sense of self. But there is a conceit without self-views.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Coyote »

How I have had it explained is that the steam-enterant has eliminated self-view with regard to the aggregates, so he/she sees that form, feeling ect. are without self. But there is a lingering sense of "I" with regard to the being as a whole until arahantship.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom »

How I have had it explained is that the steam-enterant has eliminated self-view with regard to the aggregates, so he/she sees that form, feeling ect. are without self. But there is a lingering sense of "I" with regard to the being as a whole until arahantship.
Not only. He/she can't consider, that there is a self inside this/that aggregate, outside this/that aggregate, that all of them are self, or that self is apart from all of them 8-)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Coyote »

Zom wrote:
Not only. He/she can't consider, that there is a self inside this/that aggregate, outside this/that aggregate, that all of them are self, or that self is apart from all of them 8-)
If that is the case, and it is realised at stream entry, then what is the conceit that goes away at arahantship? Wouldn't this include a lingering sense of I around the aggregates?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom »

Conceit is that very sense of self. And that very sense of self is the conceit -)

At the moment of "getting" fruit of stream-entry you realise (intellectualy, but deep enough) that in reality there is nothing that can be taken as "true self". That is why your self-view (ditthi --> views, ideas, thoughts about, opinions, ect) ruins. When you catch that idea, you understand how things (any things) happen in reality. And you will never ask youself or someone else any questions that are based on misunderstanding, that is, on one of two extremes of "existing individually" or "not existing individually". For example, some people ask: "how there is rebirth, when there is no one who gets reborn?" This is an example of a question based on "annihilationist" point of view, the extreme of non-existence. Or, for example, when someone asks "what is it that enters nibbana?" - this is an example of eternalist-view question. No such ideas, no such questions and speculations just can't arise in a stream winner. Because he "got the point" .)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by duckfiasco »

Coyote wrote:How I have had it explained is that the steam-entrant has eliminated self-view with regard to the aggregates, so he/she sees that form, feeling ect. are without self. But there is a lingering sense of "I" with regard to the being as a whole until arahantship.
Thank you for this.
This whole thread has been very inspiring, for example Ian's post and Zom's insights as well.
Makes it feel like although there's much work to be done, we've already done more work than we could possibly imagine to get here.
I notice I tend to get discouraged when trying to gauge this or that level of practice in my life.
Very encouraging people on this forum :)

I, like several other posters here, have a good sense of non-self with regard to the aggregates.
Self-view doesn't buzz around quite so often anymore.
However, this lingering "despite all these separate parts, the whole may make a self" is very tenacious and deep.
That feeling comes up in some form or another, and I try to just note it and let it go.
I take it this sense of "somehow a self anyway" is the conceit mentioned that takes a long time to dissipate.

I'll continue reading this thread. Quite a lot of posts to consider :popcorn:
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

Zom wrote:
At the moment of "getting" fruit of stream-entry you realise (intellectualy, but deep enough) that in reality there is nothing that can be taken as "true self".
So there is a "moment" of realisation and that realisation is uniform for all those "getting" fruit of stream-entry?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by mikenz66 »

Coyote wrote:
Zom wrote:
Not only. He/she can't consider, that there is a self inside this/that aggregate, outside this/that aggregate, that all of them are self, or that self is apart from all of them 8-)
If that is the case, and it is realised at stream entry, then what is the conceit that goes away at arahantship? Wouldn't this include a lingering sense of I around the aggregates?
This is described by Ven Khemaka:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

"It's just like the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus: If someone were to call it the scent of a petal or the scent of the color or the scent of a filament, would he be speaking correctly?"

"No, friend."

"Then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?"

"As the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly."

"In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'
See also this Dictionary entry on the fetters:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala
And, in particular, mana, "conceit":
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... m.htm#māna

:anjali:
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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom »

So there is a "moment" of realisation and that realisation is uniform for all those "getting" fruit of stream-entry?
How could be otherwise? -)


Among types of impartiality, the best is that a stream-enterer is equal to a stream-enterer, a once-returner is equal to a once-returner, a non-returner is equal to a non-returner, and an arahant is equal to an arahant. This is called the power of sustaining a favorable relationship.


AN 9.5 >> http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... ightenment
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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man »

Well the realization could be something that develops and deepens (over time) and it could be a deepening in faith (see IanAnd's earlier post) rather than a moment of insight into the nature of self. Possibly the manifestation is not consistent.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Zom wrote:Conceit is that very sense of self. And that very sense of self is the conceit -)

At the moment of "getting" fruit of stream-entry you realise (intellectualy, but deep enough) that in reality there is nothing that can be taken as "true self". That is why your self-view (ditthi --> views, ideas, thoughts about, opinions, ect) ruins. When you catch that idea, you understand how things (any things) happen in reality. And you will never ask youself or someone else any questions that are based on misunderstanding, that is, on one of two extremes of "existing individually" or "not existing individually". For example, some people ask: "how there is rebirth, when there is no one who gets reborn?" This is an example of a question based on "annihilationist" point of view, the extreme of non-existence. Or, for example, when someone asks "what is it that enters nibbana?" - this is an example of eternalist-view question. No such ideas, no such questions and speculations just can't arise in a stream winner. Because he "got the point" .)
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Alex123
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Alex123 »

Mr Man wrote:Well the realization could be something that develops and deepens (over time) and it could be a deepening in faith (see IanAnd's earlier post) rather than a moment of insight into the nature of self. Possibly the manifestation is not consistent.

This is what I am thinking myself. What if fetters, for most of us, slowly fade from 100% to 0% rather than go from 100% to 0% in two micro moments.

Also, the suttas seem to talk about path that lasts more than one nano-second. There is sutta where it talks how one can give almost to someone who is on path to stream entry and to stream enterer.
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